The Data Diva E121 - Jess Simpson and Debbie Reynolds

In episode 121 of “The Data Diva” Talks Privacy Podcast Debbie Reynolds talks to Jess Simpson, SVP, Global Solutions Consulting & Verified Technology, Publicis Groupe, Global Data & Tech Consulting. We discuss her journey in technology and data, self-taught education, marketing and adtech, life and work changes involving privacy and antitrust, content moderation, current privacy and technology concerns, clean rooms, brand safety privacy-driven collaborations, and hopes for the future of Data Privacy.

(46 minutes) Audio and full transcript here: https://www.debbiereynoldsconsulting.com/podcast/e121-jess-simpson

Subscribe to “The Data Diva” Talks Privacy Podcast now available on all major podcast directories, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, iHeart Radio, and more. Hosted by Data Diva Media Debbie Reynolds Consulting, LLC

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Transcript

46:51

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

privacy, data, cleanroom, people, technology, advertisers, marketing, brand, industry, world, target, sits, antitrust, bit, tech, collaboration, audience, organization, teach, publisher

SPEAKERS

Debbie Reynolds, Jess Simpson

Debbie Reynolds  00:00

Personal views and opinions expressed by our podcast guests are their own and are not legal advice or official statements by their organizations. Hello, my name is Debbie Reynolds; they call me "The Data Diva". This is "The Data Diva" Talks Privacy podcast where we discuss Data Privacy issues with industry leaders around the world with information that businesses need to know now. I have a special guest on the show. Her name is Jess Simpson. She is the Senior Vice President of Global Solutions Consulting and Verified Technology for Publicis Group. So she is a very dynamic global data and tech consulting leader. Welcome.

Jess Simpson  00:47

Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Following your podcasts forever.

Debbie Reynolds  00:52

Oh, my goodness. So I always tell the story about how we met. So I saw that you were speaking at a conference that I was attending in New York, it was the Ketch Privacy Matters Group conference in New York, and I sent you a message hey, I can't wait to see you speak or whatever. And they you sent me a message back, oh, my god, I love your podcast, and whatever. So that was always so fun. So I was really excited to get to meet you so when I heard you speak, I was blown away. I'm like, this girl models where all the bodies are buried. She's, I can tell. I can tell when people have a lot of operational excellence, you know? So you're not just talking in theory; when you talk it's come from a place of kind of knowledge and learning. So I want you to tell your story about how you got into technology and data and how that touches on privacy.

Jess Simpson  01:56

Well, first of all, that's such a huge compliment coming from somebody who has the credentials that you have because when I started this particular job at Publicis about two years ago, your podcast was one of the first podcasts that I started listening to teach myself the ins and outs of digital trust technology and the intersection of policy and tech. So to get a compliment like that from you is very flattering. And I will take this recording and keep it for rainy days. So thank you. I mean, how I got started is a really funny story. My mom is a lawyer, my dad was an entrepreneur, and I was a waffling student who didn't really know what she wanted to do. And she grew up, and I thought I was gonna go to school and play soccer at like a Big D One school and got hurt, and so ended up in Colorado, and just kind of like, bounced around from class to class and thought I was going to be a journalist. And then when I got out of school, I ended up at a PR firm, and I followed the money. And I looked at who in the meetings got paid the most. And who in the meetings was also the individual that everybody went to for the hardest questions. And I just sat next to those people. And so I sort of just taught myself like I knew I never wanted to go to grad school or get an MBA because I'm a little bit allergic to math. And I would just sit next to like the engineers and the solution architects and the analytics professionals, and I would ask questions, and I just wanted to be that person that people would go to answer the really, really hard problems. And then I would just find the resources online to kind of teach me how to answer those problems. And so I would apply for the roles that, you know, a lot of other people didn't want, and taught myself how to be like a pretty, you know, specialized SME in certain elements of technology and data that complemented you know, the focuses of analytics and other technology practitioners really well. And that's kind of how I got to where I am today. It was definitely not through schooling, so.

Debbie Reynolds  04:24

That is stunning. That's amazing. So so let me tell you what I think is really amazing about this. So I think we have a parallel there. Where a lot of my technology is self-taught, I was a philosopher believe it or not in college, and my mother was horrified. She was like, oh my god, like what in the world can you do with that? Right? Like she came from, you know, very old-fashioned. Okay, you go to school for a trade, you know, you want to be a lawyer, you want to be a doctor, you want to be a plumber. You know, she just didn't understand at all. But that taught me how to think, and I have taught me how to speak and reason with people. And then I just fell in love with technology. And that's how I applied it. So I think your story is amazing because it shows what you can do when you're curious. And you really want to learn, you want to really be that person. And also, I feel like in technology spaces, a lot of what we're doing is emerging. So there isn't like a roadmap, and there really isn't a blueprint for that. So I think people, really interesting people like you do a really good job of making a path for yourself, just following your interest, and wow, what a path you've made for yourself.

Jess Simpson  05:37

Yeah, be curious, and that's so funny. I had a boss who asked me like, what's your number one quality? And I was like, I don't know, my mom finds it to be a detriment because I ask a lot of questions. And I negotiate with her constantly. But I think it's my curiosity. And I always ask people who interview for my open roles to I'm like, Are you curious because I can teach you the technical? But I can't teach you like the soccer analogy. Like I can't teach you to want the ball, you know, I can do the techniques, but I can't teach you to want the ball. You need to want the ball more than everybody else. And that's the curiosity aspect. Like, you need to want to know how to answer the question more than anybody else in the room. And I can teach you how to get there. Because there's a bunch of different ways. But like, you need to want to know the answer more than anybody else.

Debbie Reynolds  06:30

Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. Excellent. So I want to dig a bit deeper with you on what you do in your role because you're superduper deep into kind of the marketing and ad tech space. And a lot of people don't really know that space outside of kind of the superficial front end of that, right? So they're like, okay, well, a marketing person, and they do websites, and they, you know, talk to legal people where you really help organizations with the guts of the operation in terms of how they touch data and what they do with it. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Jess Simpson  07:13

Yeah, it's interesting because depending on who you talk to, so I roll into the Chief Digital Officer Publicis group, Helen Lynn. And, you know, she'll always be telling me a lot like, just there will be there will be people who want to understand how to build the plane and fly the plane. And then there'll be people who just want to understand how to land it. So you know, know your audience, right? And so it's very much who are you talking to? And I'm fortunate enough to get to work across the entire landscape of the industry. So when we think about the paradigm of privacy, and the advertisers that have to navigate those headwinds, it really encompasses more than just what's happening with big tech and Apple and Google or regulatory reform. I mean, it really does encapsulate some things around sustainability and antitrust and diversity and inclusion. And so how does all of that play together in terms of not how do we help advertisers or the partners interpret the law? But how do we help them build an experience or invest in the right data infrastructure or recommend the right workflows and the right trust technologies to support that, so they can continue to execute on really mission-critical use cases that have been driving media advertising and marketing initiatives, you know, from the beginning of time? And I think like, that's the technology, Tetris and puzzle that we find really interesting. So a lot of media practitioners have gone out, and they've just traditionally and very tactically, and transactionally, bought media and said, I'm going to go to a streaming service like a Roku, or Disney plus or a Netflix and I'm just going to buy media. That's not how it works anymore. You have to think about what data am I going to use. How do I understand my audience? How do I understand their preferences and their consent flags? Do I target them on an ID? is that ID consented? Do I want to move my data around the ecosystem? Should I use privacy-focused API's or should I use CDP connectors to do that? You know, how do I target if I'm a healthcare client? How do I target my audience? Is using personalized creative without seeming creepy or going against regulatory requirements. And so those are all things that we advise clients on. And then also work with the partners who support the clients like DSPs, SSPs, CDPs, cleanrooms cloud partners to help drive their roadmap to be equitable to the needs, desires, wants, and requirements of the biocide for the advertiser, so it's a really neat position to be in. Because on any given day, we could talk to a Data Privacy organization or a CMO organization or, you know, a CIO CTO organization. And we're really trying to open up, you know, marketing transformation opportunities so that they can drive, you know, digital business transformation and growth all through the lens of executing cool advertising.

Debbie Reynolds  10:57

Yeah, wow, that's a big job. That's a big tip to me. So you've been doing this and on this track for many years; how has privacy impacted your job? So privacy laws existed for a while, right? There are more privacy laws have come into play. People started really paying attention to privacy at the C-suite level once the GDPR went into effect in 2018. But how has your life and your work changed as a result of all these crazy tectonic shifts in privacy?

Jess Simpson  11:35

Oh man, where do I even start? I mean, I probably have like three conversations a week with CMO's, where we talk about what's happening with privacy disruption. And at first, it started with like, cookie deprecation. And I say that in air quotes. And I'm really trying to uplevel that conversation because it's not about cookies. That's not I mean; it's about the fact that technology has a trust problem. And brands need to own specifically marketing needs to own the fact that trust sits inside of marketing. And so like when you think about the areas of focus, and I was listening to a previous podcast, and you know, we share similar connections within the industry. And so I know you had Tom Chavez on, and he kind of said trust is oxygen for businesses. You know, one of the sentiments that he and I share is that privacy is a competitive advantage for businesses. And so how I think to answer your question, specifically, how has privacy been a disrupter? But also, I think something that has been so fundamentally embedded in what my day-to-day is, is it's an education standpoint on how privacy can drive media efficacy, or privacy can drive, you know, growth and business expansion. And so the issue with that, though, is that how do you as an agency, organize that education in a way that's not actually providing legal advice, but that's helping your clients, you know, execute smarter marketing business campaigns, right? And part of the issue is that the tech regulation is so inconsistent and outdated and fragmented. But if you dial into sort of like the three main categories of bills that affect our industry, which is kind of more or less around like content, moderation, which ties to like Section 230, which is an independent group, who sits within my org, but isn't somebody isn't necessarily what I tie into. It's more around brand safety, which is kind of some of the stuff that we've talked about, like around the Metaverse, and then you've got you know, your consumer privacy, and your your antitrust. And so when you dial it back and think about it in terms of those three categories, antitrust links to interoperability, consumer privacy, links to data security and data protection laws, and then you have you know, your content moderation. And then somewhere in there, you have like cross border data transfers, which I suppose can like, kind of link to like data interoperability. And if you kind of bite it off that way, and then think about what are the strategies and the solutions that fit within that to build out infrastructures whether it's privacy by design, like, do we need to start thinking about how you, you know, bring in privacy tech like code so that you can understand the types of data that you're processing the categories, the uses the qualifiers, and then that, you know, privacy engineers are automatically alerted of that based off of the taxonomy and hierarchies. Is it you know, a technology like a consent where it's like a digital wallet, so that when data first-party data is collected, you are making sure that consumers have appropriate notice and choice and, you know, rites of removal, deletion, correction, you know, how are those things then now embedded into the way that you're building experiences are cross paid and owned and interacting with the individuals that you work with? And so if you kind of take more of that pragmatic approach, it becomes a little bit more digestible.

Debbie Reynolds  16:06

Wow, I've never heard anyone segment things that way. That's really interesting. It's funny, one of the things you said about antitrust, I had a spirited debate with someone many years ago. They didn't understand how privacy and antitrust were related. All right, come on now.

Jess Simpson  16:25

If you start breaking, I mean, which on one hand, right, you start breaking up big monopolies like the Googles and the Facebooks of the world, you do start opening up some risk around the first-party data that sits in there. Because you are without PETs, just support the way that some of that's access. I mean, it's very interconnected. So yeah.

Debbie Reynolds  16:56

I agree. I agree. Let's chat a bit about content moderation. So this is going to be a hot issue. But what I'm seeing on the regulatory landscape, you know, places like Australia, India, the EU, definitely, possibly the US because I think there is at least one case, at the Supreme Court level, you're going to hear around Section 230 related to content moderation, or free speech or stuff like that. So what are some of the things that brands are coming to you about as it relates to how they need to manage this kind of new minefield that's developing? So before it was like, okay, we're just going to let brands do whatever they want. And now we're seeing regulators say, Well, you know, we think that because of, you know, maybe some other, you know, type of violence, or, you know, the way that they don't like kind of the contentiousness of the way people behave sometimes. On certain sites, they, these regulators want to sort of come in and say, hey, if you can't get your act together in the EU, for example, you know, you get fined them 6% of your global revenue. So, tell me what, what talks or what, what things are coming up, or what questions are coming up with your clients around trying to navigate what that's going to be like in the future.

Jess Simpson  18:33

It is, particularly with the recent news with Twitter and Elon Musk, it is very top of mind. So I have to admit, this is not my specific remit, the gentleman who runs this for our organization, would be excellent for you to speak with. He actually also runs all of our sustainability efforts. His name is Yael Cohen. And he has been running our standards practice for 10 years. So he sits across Garm and a bunch of other industry or where he is actually setting frameworks and standards across a number of organizations globally to try to address some of this. And we are building a tool internally that we refer to as lighthouse that incorporates a lot of verification partners that look at brand safety metrics. I mean, we've always looked at brand safety metrics. And we've always provided positions and recommendations in the space on you know, how brands should be thinking about platforms that have a lot of user-generated content and have risk to be next to you know, items around hate speech or when, you know, a lot of the sort of vitriol in the news was taking place, you know, during a lot of the different movements that were happening during the pandemic and such. And he has a lot of different tools and frameworks that he deploys, particularly as it relates to social. And so we have basically scoring methodologies that we can use that we work with various partners to implement as part of the deployment of campaigns that allow us to be able to block certain types of content using various technologies based on risk tolerance levels. And then we have like predefined technology that will sort of like run proxies, and like run validation and say, you know, based off of what we can see on, you know, the metadata on these pages where the privacy policies, like we don't think that these publishers are these sites, you know, score very high, the risk is too high, we wouldn't recommend, you know, this advertiser whose tolerance is very low for these types of things to participate on these types of sites. So it's kind of all part of our consulting framework that we package up as part of an offering. But it's very, I would say, client specific based on what their appetite is around various levels of risk because you have telcos and fin servs. And some retailers who just have zero tolerance for it, and for instance, are scaling back on their investments with Twitter, and then you have others who have a little bit higher of tolerance for some of those risk levels, and, you know, aren't as concerned and for instance, like dove headfirst into new social platforms like Twitter, where, you know, initially didn't have a lot of the same types of regulations or dove headfirst into the Metaverse, which you and I have talked about, you know, some of the standards around brand safety are still very much evolving.

Debbie Reynolds  22:31

So what is happening in the world right now around privacy, tech, or what you're working on? What was top of mind for you right now? What just gets your goat right now?

Jess Simpson  22:43

So I read about so generally speaking, what I talked about, more than anything else would probably be clean rooms and content management platforms. So those are probably the two technologies that I talked about more than anything else.

Debbie Reynolds  23:08

I want you to explain what a cleanroom is. But tell me what your other thing is.

Jess Simpson  23:11

Yeah, absolutely. Means different things to different people. Everybody just kind of throws it around. So that's a good question. That said, I was doing some research yesterday and I came across two really interesting technologies that I can't place where I would put it. What is called Fides it's actually named after the Roman god of trust. Have you ever heard of it? No, I haven't heard of it. It is a human-readable description language. It's like a data sterilization language. And it's a privacy-by-design language. And then the other one is called Tara True, which is a data collaboration technology. And it allows engineers to basically work with other organizational teams to identify privacy risks associated with developing products or experiences. So both are privacy by design products, or, you know, codes, solutions that help you kind of identify data sufficiency models and privacy by design elements so that you can build that into experience or products as you're going to market. So I would say like, that's probably the cusp of some of the new tech encode that I'm getting into, although that's very future state for a lot of like the marketing teams that we work with. And so, you know, kind of back to my original point, I think what we're really dialed into right now are cleanrooms and CMPs. And definitely how that affects your Omni commerce strategy.

Debbie Reynolds  24:54

Alright, so yeah, let's dive into cleanrooms. We're glad you mentioned that because it is something. So because I work across many different industries, sometimes people take those terms, and they use them in different ways. So, back in the day, cleanroom people thought it was kind of like a data collaboration space, kind of in the legal sense, like people were like a deal room, but clean rooms are totally different. So can you explain to me what a clean room is and what it's supposed to do and kind of marketing in your world?

Jess Simpson  25:28

Yeah, so the way that we think about it, I mean, there's definitely like, we probably think about like four different classifications of cleanroom. But the definition of a cleanroom in our world is basically a privacy-enhancing technology or digital trust technology that does in fact, allow for secure data collaboration. And so the way that we think about it in terms of like, what the approach and purposes is that its intent is to mitigate you know, consumer privacy and data security risks, while maintaining critical marketing and media use cases. And so we don't necessarily think of it as like a safe haven or a CRM database, which is what a lot of more legacy systems are kind of trying to like bucket themselves as a cleanroom. And we see the core functions being around, you know, protection around data breaches. So in data leakages, you know, so that that data security piece, which the cloud cleanrooms do a really good job of so like the AWS and snowflakes in the world, but it's also around protecting data custody. So that's where the confidential computing and multi-party compute come into play. So you match data without moving data when you're sharing with second and third parties. Identity not being leaked, so linkages of individuals cannot occur. And then all about like the differential privacy, the Caymans, all that good stuff, right? So attributes can not be appended at a user level, which most cleanrooms do like that's kind of table stakes. And then, we see the four levels of cleanrooms being the close ecosystem cleanroom. So that's like your Google Ads Data Hub, fondly referred to as ADH, or like Amazon's AMC, which is built on the AWS infrastructure, Facebook's analytics environment, I think they call it AA. NBCU has one, Roku has one you know, pretty much every publisher and platforms can have one, right? Privacy APIs are different, but a lot of privacy APIs are like the new way to move data instead of pixels that funnel into a cleanroom environment so that you can you know, do consented retargeting in the absence of like a FLOC or a topics, which is Google's retargeting and targeting solution. Then we have cloud-specific cleanrooms. Right, so this is like your AWS and your snowflake, I would probably put like Newstar. In there, you've got boutique cleanrooms, which is where I would put like the taboos, the info sums, the dissenter, x and then you have more of like the legacy safe havens, which are trying to transition into clean rooms. And that's like your app salons experience axioms, Merkel’s, and live ramps. And the one that I see probably like ahead of everybody else is the live ramp where they're becoming more of an application like a Haboo that can sit on top of a cloud environment like a GCP snowflake as your AWS so that you can actually keep your data in your own first-party cloud environment, match, not move and then just kind of move the math versus move the ideas.

Debbie Reynolds  28:57

Wow, that's fascinating. Yeah, so I actually have gone to two events recently around clean rooms. It's been fascinating to hear people kind of talk about it. And it's interesting to me how privacy comes up here. Because, you know, I think, you know, especially when a lot of these privacy laws, like GDPR came into play. I feel like people in marketing advertising when people couldn't figure out anything, you all were like the frontline. You're like, oh my god, we don't know what to do. It's kind of throw you out there and like, oh, you need to help us figure this out. But as compute becomes more complex, and as the data continues to grow, especially we're thinking about like the Metaverse are connected devices, and how people, you know, use that data, or I think that's really interesting. But then also one interesting thing that I think around cleanroom, that sort of I feel like, you know, this kind of the entree into what we'll experience and kind of web three is the idea behind not creating new buckets of data. But actually having people have data in place and being able to kind of share those insights.

Jess Simpson  30:10

Yeah, totally. Because when you think about like, what's happening in the privacy landscape, right, everyone's talking about cookies, which again, just totally trips my trigger. Because it's like, it's not just cookies, it's signal deprecation. Like you have, its cookies, its mobile device IDs, and its IP addresses. It's everything. Like, it's everything you use to target measure plan. And so one of the big things at risk is the ability to bring all of that data in to do planning in Audience Insights, overlap, all that good stuff. So everybody is using the data that's still in these data marketplaces to do overlap analysis and try to drive audience targeting or, you know, mass personalization of like, dynamic, creative, whatever that is. So where the good data is, is like retail media networks. I mean, they're never going to share data against an ID; they're just they're never going to do that. Even if it was illegal, which it's not in, like the vast majority of the world. That is their IP. Why would they do that? Like even for a substantial media commit? I would never advise that. So how do you get derivative insights from that in a compliant way so that advertisers can still use that to create, you know, this concept of engineered serendipity and personalization at scale without actually having to target the idea itself? Data collaboration, digital trust technology, cleanroom, you match, you don't move. So it's how it's actually done. I've no idea because again, like I said, I'm allergic to math, but there's some sort of like fancy unicorn math that, you know, people refer to as confidential computing and multi-party compute, where you can like, create through encryption, these, you know, two tethered data sets, and then you can look at patterns and feature sets. And through these algorithms, you can see shared commonalities. And then you, you know, there's binary types of flags that are associated to the shared commonalities, those shared commonalities are then returned. And then you can say, oh, you know, in the Walmart data set in the target data set in the Instacart data set that's also shared with said advertiser data set. Now I know that I can go personalize my website landing page or my creative to look like this so that I can go acquire PII and then go and target that person on a consented ID. And that's really what we're trying to do with cleanroom technology at its basic level.

Debbie Reynolds  33:01

The, you know, I think it's kind of a mind-boggling thing for people. And so I also think, you know, in the future, these things will gain a lot more traction even than it has before because as those data, lakes dry up for people, they're going to have to find a way to get that data or go out of business, right. But then also, I feel like organizations, they're going to be more particular. So they don't want to spend money on stuff that's targeting people who are interested in their product. So they're going to be trying to find ways to be more circumspect, trying to make sure that they're getting the right value. Because I know, you know, a lot of people talk about like, ad fraud, where people they're like, oh, they buy these ads, and they're just not really targeted to the right people. And there's kind of like wasting the money on marketing, ad tech; what are your thoughts about that?

Jess Simpson  34:03

100% and so that the ad fraud actually sits within that same gentleman yield the organization that I was talking about. So the brand safety vendors like Pier 39 And IAS and Double Verified, their tagging and server to server integrations solve for a lot of like ad fraud, brand, safety, bot, all those types of things, and they can be integrated pre-bid. So before you actually bid on the impression, a lot of that stuff is already accounted for. In addition to that, we're building out a way to be able to measure like, did your audience hit this much like Latinx, or this much African American? So we're trying to actually build out a solution that is valid It's not just brand safety and prevents from fraud, but also keys off on DNI initiatives. So we're kind of trying to build this all in one. But do it in a way that is before you actually bid on the impression in a sustainable way, right with sustainable partners. So we're, you know, we're, we're also bringing in that element of sustainability. And then we're working with, you know, technologies, like CMP. So like hedge like source point, like, our friend, Richie Glasgow, who can look at different, you know, publisher sites, different privacy policies to then bring in the privacy element. So it's a beta product, but it's an all-in-one product that really keys off on so many different concerns that advertisers have across fraud, verification, brand safety, you know, DNI, compliance, privacy, all those types of things kind of all in one unit, and takes all of this kind of pre-bid and post bid. But it's very predicated on the server side, so SSP demand side DSP technology, and then the technology of some of these partners, and one of the part, you know, partners like Pier 39, and IAS and stuff.

Debbie Reynolds  36:29

Yeah, yeah. So I want your thoughts a bit about collaboration. So, you know, this space, you know, I feel like privacy is forcing in a good way, companies to find ways to not just be in their own little silo, but you have to collaborate with so many different people. So it isn't just regulatory legal silos, not just ESG or not just DEI or it's not just, you know, privacy tech, so being so you're able to help collaborate or be in a collaboration with people in all these different areas in order to do your job. So tell me a little bit about that.

Jess Simpson  37:12

Yeah, I mean, there's, it's a little bit of a double-edged sword. But I love it. So like, one of the things that I saw is super hopeful and promising. In terms of collaboration and interoperability, it was Google's move to adopt an IAB standard called seller-defined audiences, which is, you know, IAB is trying to pioneer its, I'm sure you know, where IAB is, but it's, you know, an industry org that works really closely with the FTC to try to represent advertiser interest in the industry's interests. And they have a product that is going to help monetize publisher audiences. And Google came out publicly and said, yep, we are going to implement this solution. In, you know, 01/08/2023, that push towards interoperability was incredible. You know, I thought that that was a really good signal to the industry that they were going to take on some IAB initiatives. I also think that their indicator towards pair, which is basically their counter to like the UID's, and the live ramp, ATS is of the world was another really good signal. Now, it's not exactly like a UID or a pair for very intentional reasons. It's not, you know, cross-publisher cross-device, or, I'm sorry, cross channel, which is it is cross-device, but not cross-channel, which is fine, right? Those are good signals in the right direction. And it also takes into consideration some multi-party compute aspects because it's using cleanrooms, like Infosum Live Ramp and Hubco, which is things that we as an agency have been asking for months. And so we were really, really pleased about that collaboration. And we felt like we were heard, which, you know, for a big behemoth like Google sometimes isn't always the case. And so sometimes you feel when you are trying to pioneer collaboration because it takes so long because the partners that you're working with are so large and have so many competing priorities. You feel like you're banging your head on the wall a little bit because you are representing multiple interests, but you are always as an agency, you know, trying to represent the best interests of your advertisers. But I feel very hopeful, based off of, you know, some of the working groups that I have been in across the IAB, and the forays and others about, you know, just where the industry is going, they're trying to get frameworks and market earlier to react to. I feel like there's a lot of engagement. And so I do think it's forcing people to work together. And even at a brand itself, when you think about the technology that's required to just execute on, you know, a campaign anymore, you have to get legal, you have to get the CTO, you have to get the CIO and the CMO in the room to agree and invest in some of this technology. And so you're breaking down silos? And is it hard? 100%? Does it take a really long time? Absolutely. You know, is it a job for everybody? No, it's not. But you know, I mean, if it like, it's the tried and true, saying, like, if it was easy, not everybody would do it. Do I think it's fun? Yeah. But I mean, I like a challenge. So I don't know. I think it's cool.

Debbie Reynolds  37:12

Me too. I was like, I like hard problems I get really excited about because it's fun. It's fun.

Jess Simpson  41:23

I mean, otherwise, you'd be bored all day.

Debbie Reynolds  41:26

Totally bored. I totally agree with it. Oh, my goodness. So if it were the world, according to Jess and we did everything you said what would be your wish for privacy anywhere in the world, anything technology, human stuff, regulation, what are your thoughts?

Jess Simpson  41:40

You know, I would just like my first wish would be that one, legal and marketing knock on each other's doors and say, let's have a conversation. Like how can we help each other, you know, coming, like being birthed from a lawyer like, and almost going to law school, like the biggest advantage that I think, like I said, companies can do is look at privacy as a competitive trigger. It will drive top-line growth for you if you do it the right way. It's a strategy, it's not a compliance box; you can check. And the best way to do that is to break down organizational silos. And so go and invite your legal counsel in your Data Privacy organization out for coffee, like marketing, have a seat at the table, like it is now your chance to drive the investments around the technology that Institute's trust, in bringing that to the forefront, like you have an opportunity to influence that. And so from a business perspective, like, I would say, like that's my biggest wish, is like for marketing to have a seat at that table. And to demand it, you know, and then from just like an overall perspective, I think like, you know, just, I don't know, like, people should just like take a step back and breathe. Like, we are not like saving babies. We're not operating on hearts and brains like this is marketing, right? Like, we are all on the hook for driving revenue, but we're not working against each other. We're working with each other. So like, just take a step back and ask questions, like, it's okay to ask questions. Like, nobody needs to be chaotic or scared or afraid. Like, nobody knows everything, and nobody has the answers for at all. So like, to our earlier point, be curious, you know, just take a breath and be curious, like, it's gonna work itself out, it's just fine. You know, so just have a glass of wine or a glass of coffee, whatever your bias is, and just take a breath and ask some questions, you know,

Debbie Reynolds  44:07

Totally. Well, I'm excited because I think I've always been one to go, you know, I sort of float across all these different silos and try to get people to work together, and so I feel like privacy is one of those issues where it just can't work unless you do that. So I think we have we are forced to go this way, but as you say, it is a business advantage, I say that all the time. Excellent, excellent. Well, thank you so much. This is so much fun. Oh my god like for us to be able to do that. Yeah, I look forward for us being able to do some other stuff together. That'd be great. 

Jess Simpson  44:43

For sure.

Debbie Reynolds  44:45

Thank you, my dear. Talk to you soon.

Jess Simpson  44:47

Have a wonderful day. Thanks so much.

Debbie Reynolds  44:49

Okay, bye.