The Data Diva E12 – Zaheer Allam, Ph.D. and Debbie Reynolds

Debbie Reynolds "The Data Diva," talks to Zaheer Allam, Ph.D., an expert on Smart Cities. He is also an Urban Strategist and an advocate for Sustainable Futures. We discuss the definition of smart cities, the thread of technology through smart cities, citizens needs in different communities, safe cities use of surveillance, sharing data for research and development, use of synthetic data, ethics of data collection, smart cities, and AI bias, Western Culture and technology development, scale and its impact on smart cities, interoperability of data exchange and innovation, proximity-based data solutions, data rebates and other ways to share data in appropriate ways and his wishes for data privacy in the future. 

Transcript

Data Diva Zaheer Allam

39:23

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

city, data, smart cities, technology, people, smart, Mauritius, happening, communities, privacy, benefit, important, thinking, podcast, urban, fascinating, understand, algorithm, individuals, third party provider

SPEAKERS

Debbie Reynolds, Zaheer Allam

Debbie Reynolds  00:00

The personal views and opinions expressed by our podcast guests are their own and are not legal advice or official statements by their organizations. Hello, This is Debbie Reynolds of "The Data Diva Talks" Privacy Podcast, where we discuss pressing privacy issues with leaders around the world for information that businesses need to know now. Today I have the pleasure of having Zaheer Allam Ph.D. on the program. Zaheer is an expert in Smart Cities and sustainable futures. He's an urban strategist and author of eight books. He has had his articles and his work featured in 65 publications. He speaks four languages. He is very passionate about exploring transdisciplinary systems aimed at sustainable futures and urban social, economic regeneration. He also is very into culture and technology as it relates to cities, big and small. He works at the intersection of not only the technology but also urban resilience and works with global organizations on smart city issues. So I'm very happy to have Zaheer Allam on the program.

Zaheer Allam  01:23

Thanks, Debbie. Thanks for having me. I'm really pleased to be speaking to you today.

Debbie Reynolds  01:27

Well, we met on Zoe Eather's 100,000 downloads party for her Smart Cities podcast. She's in Australia,  I consider her like the Queen of Smart City. So yeah, she's

Zaheer Allam  01:41

really good. at how like the podcast, the podcast thing actually exploded all of a sudden,

Debbie Reynolds  01:51

Oh, absolutely. Well, I guess people are stuck at home now, you're like, desperate for content or different types. So she was really very much a trailblazer. And getting her podcast started. Especially I feel like a lot of people when they think about podcasts, and some people don't really think about the longer form podcast. So being able to have a long-form podcast, and it gets that much attention is especially on Smart Cities, is really amazing. Yeah, I'd love for you for any gaps that I missed. In. In my introduction of you, I would love for you to tell the audience a little bit more about what you do. You're so multifaceted, and I would love to just get a more fulsome picture of sort of what you do what you're interested in.

Zaheer Allam  02:37

Yeah, actually, for me, I have kind of a very diverse background. I started, for example, my studies. I did BSC in Architecture and then moved, didn't want to become an architect. I'm I studied some project management, I did an MBA. I have another Master's in Political Economy. But then my Ph.D. is on university, something of the two years where I studied Smart Cities and I but my passion is really understanding cities. And for me, cities are really fascinating because it is the underlying fabric where everything happens. Because you have to understand water, you have to understand energy, transport, culture because of how the social fabric works in itself and how all those intertwine and renders the fabric really coherent. And when you look at Smart Cities, it's incredible because then you see technology as a transversal, invisible thread that intertwines everything. It's incredible because then you can really unleash the potential of all those connections that you happen, we can themes. So for me, it is very what I'm passionate about. And as work, I work as an urban strategist, and I travel the African missions on Smart Cities or urban regeneration missions for various governments in Africa, dwelling mainly into Smart Cities and urban large scale projects. That's what I do.

Debbie Reynolds    03:59

Excellent. That's great. That's a lot to cover a lot. I think, you know, when I think about Smart Cities, Smart Cities aren't just about technology. Right? And I hear people say that a lot. So I would love for you to talk about that. Because, as you said, there's so much involved, and you know, the law, the way that you explain it, we're technology, sort of a thread that goes throughout. What are your thoughts about that?

Zaheer Allam  04:24

Yeah, you know, actually, when I started doing my Ph.D. in what I started in 2016, I finished in 2018, when I started, the concept just started picking up in Mauritius. And for us, we have a very, and we had a very different perspective on it because it's very real estate driven and Smart Cities for us many emerging cities. Whereas in other places of the world, its existing cities. It's about urban regeneration through existing cities. And actually, looking back at this, it's like many countries are the same sort of ambiguous definition. And when I was going through my Ph.D., I sort of understood that there is no universal, universally agreed definition, what actually is a Smart City, it's like a whole blur. And at that point in time, smart Cities are mainly driven by ICT corporations, by Cisco, IBM, and others, because they were pushing products. The Smart City Market is a booming industry of presenting billions of dollars over the next decade. So it's kind of makes sense that they were pushing product. And the branding is quite intelligent because everybody wants a Smart City because what's the opposite of a Smart City, a dumb city, nobody wants it. So the branding works perfectly. And then with private companies coming to push products, and so on. So for me that the real Smart City was driven primarily by ICT corporations at the beginning. But then cities kind of understand the challenges that this brings by being driven mainly by private corporations. And now, it's kind of an interesting phase because we see the transition from profit-making enterprise to more people-centered enterprises. And the Smart City is kind of in the middle of both of us. And the thing is a beautiful transition.

Debbie Reynolds    06:15

Yeah, I agree with you on that. I actually have a little story to tell. That happened to me. Many years ago, so many years ago, I lived in the Washington DC area. I lived in Maryland. Ten miles north of DC, I will say. And this particular morning, I was getting ready for work. And on the TV, there was like a water main break, as several towns over and you're watching. So basically, the road broke up, and people are on cars, or someone has like rescue by helicopter. It was very dramatic on TV, you know, to see this thing happen to you. I think, oh, my goodness, that's terrible. But I'm getting ready for work. And then I was going to turn on the water in my place. And nothing came out. And I thought, oh my god. So this water main break that happened several towns over is impacting me personally. And then I went to work that day, like the traffic was terrible, like all day, because of that thing that happened a couple of towns over. So I feel like a lot of times, we sort of live our lives and go do whatever we want. But we don't really understand how we're connected in that way. And how they how something that can happen, you know, someone else can impact you. So to me, that was like a good story about like, you know, not thinking about oh, not only thinking about yourself but thinking about how so much of the things that go on and see these impacts all of us.

Zaheer Allam  07:56

Yes, yeah. And it's like the same thing with traffic jams. You know, usually, when you understand, you try to study what 3d rendered traffic jam is like, one small, one-dimensional functioning, the city like 15 kilometers away is actually creating a traffic jam of, like, 20 kilometers away. And it's like, there's no centrally central solution for everything. It's like a series of solutions.

Debbie Reynolds    08:19

Yeah, exactly. And I love the fact that you talked about the Smart City concept transitioning over to the individual. So especially as you're talking about, you know, individuals, you have to think about individuals rights, individual privacy. What are your thoughts about that?

Zaheer Allam  08:39

I think one important dimension that can really be actualized through the Smart City is, yes, privacy, we will come to this in a few. But I think one is citizen participation, we can really break from the top-down approach to really use technology to actualize bottom approaches. One issue, which we've been having through property development and city management, was it takes a long time and is very, very expensive to really gather the thoughts and the process, you know, but um, approaches. But with technology, we can really accelerate or those and ready to get a wealth of information, not only directly from the citizens themselves, this is one-dimensional data, but we can understand patterns and challenges from different themes from also water, energy etcetera mobility, because, you know, when speaking to productions, for example, when we tell them that we think for us, climate change is a primary issue. Yes, it is a primary issue. But then, when you look at different communities, they have a different ranking of issues for them. For example, climate change in this committee is number one for the other. Number two, because housing is the priority and the other one, education is a priority. So by let's see, overlaying the differently is what people really want. What are the other varying cymatics for different services and fruit qualitative and quantitative approaches, we can really get a very in-depth understanding of the needs of different communities, not only for the city in several different communities, because in a city we have different identities. So we can really now pinpoint inaccuracy or accuracy, the different needs of different neighborhoods. So when we develop a city, we can keep the identity and the culture of the different neighborhoods. And I think at this level, a smart city can be really, really powerful tool to engage in this community participation, to build more resiliency and culture. And to come to your next point, I think privacy is a fascinating is a really, truly fascinating point. Because coming side to side with Smart Cities, the concept of safe city, and then it starts raising a lot of questions. And just as much as a lot of concerns as well. Because one, we have concerns about privacy, about rights about what happens to the data. But also interestingly, we government can promote it as a way to increase security. For example, in Mauritius, we had the unveil the Smart City concept a few years ago by Huawei, and why I also wrote that we need to be careful, and we have to devise the appropriate protocols and standards while doing this. But interestingly, a large private company did the survey. And most people were for the Smart City concept because they saw that as a project that could potentially bring increased security for the neighborhood. And rightly so, we are seeing reports in newspapers that thieves are being caught up on this and this, and they can really track it and run and so on. So at some point, it's actually working. But then on the background for what we will read for us. I mean, we want to know what happens to the data, who gets access to the data. And I think here, there's a lot of work to be done.

Debbie Reynolds    11:55

When I think about privacy, and I think about Smart Cities, I think of myself, right? You think about what you do on a day to day basis, how you sort of living your life? What things are you thinking about now that relate to technology, just you're just living your life and traveling and doing different things that have stood out to you about, you know, privacy or technology has kind of changed your life in some way, maybe infringing or even, you know, how it's helping you a certain way,

Zaheer Allam  12:28

You know, there's actually research that supports that if there are cameras in public spaces, people tend to move from those public spaces. For me personally, maybe because I live in a very small city, compared to your scale, the whole country will be a city for you. Our country's population is 1.2 million, the capital cities 150,000 people. So it's I think it's very small, but we don't feel that infringement as much. But I think this would, maybe this perception will differ in larger-scale cities. For me, I think the challenge would come. I mean, I would be maybe more comfortable if I knew the state-owned data, and managers the data collected, that the collecting may be from the source from my patterns of movement within the city and so on. But if the data is collected by a third party, not with the city, then I may be worried because Am I being pushed product or what is happening with the analysis of my patterns or my movements. And this is a real issue for countries in the developing world because usually, cities not in the developing world won't have the resources, the financial resources to invest in those safe cities energy. So what happens, then we do a call for partnerships for PPP, public-private partnerships, and you will see private organizations coming in into this into cities bidding and installing those infrastructures. And together with the government, they will be managing the operations, which will be over 20 or 30 years. And also, they will own ownership of the data, or if they don't own ownership, it is also a very gray area. Because what happens, for example, in Mauritius, if the government owns data, they are their own. Let's say they are the only ones allowed to capitalize on this data. But if a third party company, let's say a small city, a safe city provider analyzes the data provided by the government and interprets it on a graph. It now comes in a sort of graphical form, and then the third party provider will own the rights to the graphics of the data because it then moves to the other end go to read or think legislation. Because of the graphic graphical form so there are very gray areas of the law where it's very difficult actually impossible to really ascertain what a third-party provider can do with the data.

Debbie Reynolds    14:58

That's so true. So I did it. Video a while back on derivative works. And that's exactly the point that I was trying to make where companies can take data and make something new from it. And that thing that they made belongs to them, like their creation, even though that the data they use belong to someone else. So that's a very interesting point. I live in Chicago in the US. And Chicago is a very heavily surveilled city. I don't have any statistics on how surveilled it is, but they've embraced that for many years, and they've done, and I think they've done a decent job, because I don't feel people, as far as I can tell, don't feel like is encroaching upon them in some way. Because it's just pervasive, you know, when you see things on TV about someone's ring doorbell, and you know, law enforcement has access to that. I mean, for many years have, you know, like cameras from businesses that are connected, it's these other systems, so they can actually get a pretty good view of things that are happening in cities, especially about the business districts. And then also, new interesting thing new or interesting thing is listening devices. So devices that can tell where you are located based on theirs, pinging your phone, basically. And it sort of can tell, you know, they use it for crowd control. And there aren't any cameras on these things. It's just listening for, you know, your, your phone, basically, to know sort of where you are, and who you are. And that may be interesting in like investigations or crowd control that sort of comes up. But are you seeing those things in cities in

Zaheer Allam  16:57

Africa, in Mauritius, three years or four years ago, I sent a proposal to one of the largest actually the largest telecom provider in Mauritius because I wanted access to the data because I told them you could anonymize the data. But I just want to know, for example, well, that's 18 to 20 years old, from 330 to 430, in the capital city. And our thinking could be like very valid information to propose urban regeneration measures for the city. But good for them. They actually refused it even in anonymized form. It may. It may be possible to track people. But so far, Mauritius silence isn't happening through third party providers. But I'm not sure about other cities in Africa. In terms of Smart City providers, for example, I do understand the case if we need to protect data and because it has very severe consequences. But on the other front, if let's say we can have arguments as well, that says we need to share the data as well, let, let me explain one scenario. For example. Let's say we have ten different Smart Cities operated by ten different service providers. And again, those may be small cities, let's say the cities have 100,000 people, in our definition will be cities that say for villages or towns, but let's say ten communities, small communities of 100,000 people each, they all operate into a larger city of 1 million people, if we really want efficiency. And to really understand the patterns and trends that are happening, we need to really exchange data, for example, water networks on all those 11 different fabrics, and neighborhoods, and so on. And here, we need not only uniform protocols and standardization of the data sharing but also real protocols on anonymization of data on what n but also anonymization in the sense that it would be beneficial for, let's say, the researcher or the company, the central company that is really managing everything because only then we can really understand the pattern that's coming on. So yes, I think sharing of privacy is one issue we really need to look into. But secondly, we need to accentuate the sharing of data. And I think this is a very tricky middle ground of how to anonymize data as well to what level you minimize it but while still keeping the benefits associated with sharing of data.

Debbie Reynolds    19:26

That's true, very true. So yeah, so this, I think this is an issue that countries are trying to deal with. They're probably at the beginning of trying to deal with this. And that is you're collecting all this data. People need this data, as you say, like urban planners and things like that to actually do their work or project, what will be the best for our communities, but then they're grappling with how to how to get that data to the people who need it and do it in a way that impacts that protects the privacy rights of individuals. So what I'm seeing is, you know, there are a lot of companies putting together like databases of synthetic data. So it tries to the mass identity of the individual in a way that you can just really get the insights. And then, you know, do things like anonymization and pseudonymization are popular, even though they are, you know, those exercises can be very time consuming and also very expensive. So, I think that there have to be ways. I'm sure companies are coming up with ways to be able to get that data to people like you who really need it because it is really important. So not every project itself is gonna try to encroach on the personal data of individuals. But, you know, in terms of what people want, or what people need, or what are the pain points or communities that data can be very valuable and helpful.

Zaheer Allam  21:02

Yeah, and I think here, cities could probably benefit if they look at it differently. For example, the traditional way is like semi-private, a third-party provider, a private equity Corporation, I will say, I will monetize on the data for, let's say, commercial reasons, or sell advertisement or place product and so on. This is a traditional approach. But we could also look at it in a way that will benefit the city while also benefiting us, like when we benefit the city and prevent the private organization. While if we then do this, the community benefits. One example could be, for example, now talking about it, I'm thinking about it, we need to write about this, yes, we could look at it as a cost-saving sharing scenario. For example, I say, okay, for a city of Chicago, if we can analyze the data and increase the efficiency and performance of your water networks, for example, if we increase the benefits, the efficiency of this will save you $8 billion, or 8 million, whatever. And just give me 5% of this, right? So cost savings during the city saves. I win. And it's like an indirect way of selling your product without actually benefiting to third parties and so on.

Debbie Reynolds    22:12

Yeah, that's actually a great idea. That's so funny. So I have a dear friend of mine who is the Chief Information Officer for the water networks in Chicago. So I'm gonna get him on the show to ask him about that. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know when I think about I don't know, you have seen the movie Minority Report? I hope. Yeah. So that movie is very interesting. They said when Steven Spielberg was doing this movie, what he had done he had contacted a lot of technologists and futurists to try to get ideas for what was going to be happening like 50 years ahead because he wanted the movie to be as accurate as possible. And it is pretty accurate. If you think about it back, you remember that movie came out like 20 years ago, I don't know. A lot of the things that are in that movie are actually coming out now. Such things like, you know, retina scans or, you know, advertisements that follow you around and show you things even though they're not yet doing it on billboards, the technology is there to do that. If you think about, let's say, we were like your Minority Report right now you're like moving through the city, what things would you be excited about in terms of technology, and what things would scare you?

Zaheer Allam  23:31

I think right now, Artificial Intelligence is one of the things that is truly fascinating to me, both exciting and amid scared of the prospects. I just wrote a book which will be published next month. I entitled it "The Rise of the Autonomous Smart City"  because, for me, we have one Smart City, which is a basic principle of collecting data and analyzing data so that the urban planners or urban managers can make informed decisions. But I was wondering, with the advent of Yes, we are having big data because data is being collected by sensors, internet of things around the city. But then, with the advent of Artificial Intelligence, the Artificial Intelligence algorithm can actually process data. And it would actually better for the city, we can argue that those algorithms take that decision and set in dimensions for the city, then the city is more or less autonomous in certain domains, which we more efficient and performant. Because if we have to deal with, you know, administrative hurdles that usually cities have, it will take longer to enact a decision, which could have a potentially high cost. So both economically and socially and also perhaps environmentally as well, it could be beneficial to automate the city for example, for Artificial Intelligence, so we could see Autonomous Smart Cities, but then in the book as well, then I argue, but to what level will we automate cities then we also going to ethical grounds. For example, let's say we have a nuclear war going on should will cities, you know, we go in the very old Orwellian dimensions, but still, cities are able to retaliate for a nuclear war and so on. But I say that it's kind of you in the book, but then it truly will happen like this in the future, because we will go towards efficiency and performance, but to what level and also by doing this, we will perhaps inherent bias of artificial intelligence algorithm. Now, we see those biases for HR processes for human resources and so on. But then the whole city scale, those biases can impact, and whole communities then become very, very serious. Just in one end, we may perhaps better manage the environment, the climate crisis, but on the other hand, we have the social and cultural dimension of cities, because the culture is something which is extremely important in cities, but which is often undervalued and put aside in philosophy. So there's a lot of balance. And I think artificial intelligence at this point in time is very rudimentary, and they don't understand. We don't. We can't train enough to understand the sensibilities of culture and identities, it will come maybe future. But I think at this point in time, it's still very Baroque.

Debbie Reynolds    26:21

This is fascinating. So you touched on something I would love to talk about this bias, the bias in algorithms, you know, that plays very much into Smart Cities as well. Because what you really want is for everyone in the community to be able to benefit from Smart Cities. And if we have people who are developing systems that aren't thinking about the diverse needs of people in smart cities, there could be a lot of gaps where certain communities benefit more than others because of Smart Cities. What are your thoughts about that?

Zaheer Allam  26:58

I think one of the main challenges to this would be direct because, you know, those ICT corporations and those products would emanate from a Western market, right? Putting integrating it directly into the southern hemisphere in the developing world, does that work? You retrain those algorithms, and then it becomes challenging because we have a matter of scale. Your cities in the Western world would be like 1 million, 2 million 10 million people here, a city is just 150,000 people. So we have a different idea of what scarier is. So retraining algorithm for real efficiency in our escape in our context will take longer. And usually, what government also once is like you take a product, like yes, they give me a product for my city, I'll give you $10 million, and so on, you come, and you place a product, and you go, the operation as well is like an extra tip, they can retain the operation, and they do it internally, or you do it as well, the motto of training algorithms and training, this doesn't usually come into the context. And if it comes to the context, and the issue of yes, the scale is a problem, because you may train an algorithm and you have the model of 10 million people in, let's say, a few days in your context, but for us, it will never happen.

Debbie Reynolds    28:17

So you've brought something I wasn't even thinking about, which is kind of this Western context where we're we have a different perspective and trying to try to transfer that over and try to force it on, you know, other cities or towns doesn't really work. As you said, certain towns, cities, or towns value different things. Right. So let's say a smart city concept in New York may not work in, you know, different towns because they value different things.

Zaheer Allam  28:50

Yeah. And also, the weights program is designed as was just for completely out of scale proportion for us. Yeah. Yeah, that would be one that Western thing, the culture. The second the scale is just completely different.

Debbie Reynolds    29:04

Yeah. I would think, though, I don't know, maybe I'm thinking about this the wrong way. But I would think the smaller communities, and they're good tests for Smart City technology and things like that because they are smaller.

Zaheer Allam  29:17

Yeah, exactly.

Debbie Reynolds    29:17

Maybe those you build on those games. So you know, you do one, a small project, and you like to build on it until you get to something very robust, saw lots of talk about how can individuals help or harm kind of smart city progress because I feel like I don't know because of COVID now, the pandemic and or, you know, more at home or you know, their patterns of life are changing. I feel like it makes the thing about Smart Cities more important. You know, I feel like Smart City, you know, development and technology are probably going to escalate because of COVID because people are living differently now. What are your thoughts about that?

Zaheer Allam  30:04

Yeah, you know, I wrote a paper in February, I think the first company wrote about Rother, our the paper, it was a paper and COVID-19 and Smart Cities. My idea was, again, we need to push towards data sharing protocols. Because some airports in cities are using thermal cameras, but then this data was being shared in real-time with other airports in different cities and different communities, and so on are buildings that are also using thermal cameras. So they weren't the technology was there, the network was is just wasn't talking to each other. I think this is one issue. And I think the Covid 19 pandemic, now is like, really putting the limelight on this. And interestingly, a few months later, Apple and Samsung came forward with a platform for data sharing as well. Yeah, I think COVID-19 we really push towards the adoption of technologies in itself, but going to your question of how people can benefit from the Smart City already have the Smart City. And I think this is interesting if you when you place COVID into that COVID will see, let's say boom, in the integration of technology in cities. But then, when we talk, it is like most of the solutions come from Western countries. We buy those solutions with it. But with a boom in technology demand, and also coupled with the fact that our global supply chains have been fragmented, we see an increasing demand for technology products, but locally based and sales technology projects. I think this is quite beautiful because then we see emerging entrants into the market and local and trends, then what happens is we see a local wave of innovation and regeneration of the urban fabric and regeneration of businesses through a nerd that we would never have thought before. It's like creating a new wave of the economy and locally stimulating it.

Debbie Reynolds    31:57

Yeah, right. That's fascinating. To me, one of the most pressing issues that I feel that localities everywhere could benefit from related smart cities, it's about travel. So travel has been disrupted so much, because of COVID, as you said about, you know, thermal checks, and you know, who's sick and who isn't trying, especially by moving people through airports or hubs of travel, what are your thoughts about that related to smart cities, and how you think that's gonna change in the future?

Zaheer Allam  32:33

You know, there's, interestingly, during the COVID, there's one urban concept that started booming, and I'm working with a team at the Sorbonne University in France to develop the concept. It's called the 15-minute city. It's an offshoot of the Smart City concept. And what it really underlines is to promote proximity-based services within cities with the help of technology. So it's basically neighborhoods where you can walk 15 minutes across, so you favor softer mobility, rather than under call. And interestingly, during the COVID, what we saw was cities were under lockdown. So we couldn't really use a call. And we needed to walk to nearby grocery stores, and so on. And it's like, we reconnected to the city in itself. And now this concept is really booming. And one of the interesting ones of the underlying foundations of the concept is, again, the use of technology, because then we kind of rediscovered the need to map services, because we need to know what's really near as what we can really access. Yeah, and the need for basic services within this close proximity. And I think this is one of the very interesting concepts that is emerging with a pandemic. And interestingly, the city of Paris, or is already implementing it at least policy level, and we see a few global cities around the world that are not turning towards it.

Debbie Reynolds    33:56

That's true. So and this is an interesting tension between this kind of smart cities and privacy where people may not want to be tracked by their proximity. So let's say someone's, let's say, a technology company, say, you know, I searched for pizza, they assume that I want to go have pizza and have it in close by. So that's, you know, that's definitely a good thing. But then some people say, Well, I don't really want to be tracked that way, or the pizza place I'm looking for in a different country or something like that. So I want to be able to change the filters on my search so that I can do that particular search in a different way. So but I do think, you know, proximity-based searching would be important in a situation where you're locked down, or you didn't have a car or you. You are in a situation like in Chicago. Today, we just went back into another lockdown stage. Where like you can't dine in restaurants right now, or you can't have they told you, you shouldn't invite people to your home that don't live there. And so they're doing, you know, things like that. So being able to even know kind of what you can do or can't do in cities, I think it's important because of COVID. So like, let's say, the drugstore, or the grocery store that you typically go to maybe as quickly closes early, or something like that. Those things, I think, are highly impacted by, you know, by the virus, but those are opportunities also for companies coming in, or just people thinking smart about how things are changing and what they need to do.

Zaheer Allam  35:44

I think one other issue because listening to you, which I find interesting, which I think cities could adopt is, let's say, because when I was listening to you, there is commercial value in those data for the third-party provider for the primary organization, let's say, if with this data, it equals to x amount of dollars, and I'm the city, I can probably propose that if you give a way if you're going to implement a smart city, and you give a way the ownership of the data to the public sector, then you get a rebate of X percent on your income tax or something like this. It's like it could be like a fiscal policy to control data ownership. And it could be easy because the government, the country or the city, then doesn't spend anything, right. It's a fiscal tool.

Debbie Reynolds    36:36

Smart, well, you're really thinking out of the box here, this is great. So we're almost at the end of our time. But I would love to know if like if you had your dream about what privacy should be in terms of regulation, or how communities and governments respect the privacy of individuals, what is not there now that you love to be developed,

Zaheer Allam  37:02

I do believe that there should be, I mean, strongly believe that it should be sharing of data between parties and providers and the state so that there could be efficiency and performance for the individual. It has to benefit the quality of life of the person. But then on the other end, as well, kind of frightened by the idea that then the state would have the upper hand of the data. And then if this happens, then the democratic levels and the architecture of democracy is very, very important. And for this, we need a very strong social-democratic regime. So I think this will come I think, alongside each other, the architectures of society, the architectures of the political system, and going along with the economic structures, and then the needs of the quality of life of the citizen. I think those three dimensions need to really go well, well, in line. And I'll see the issue of timing I think is very important. For example, right now, we see this, the credit scores in China, which in itself, where each citizen data collected by each citizen is equal to the credit score, but the political regime, a totalitarian regime in China, will use this structure for the wrong reasons. Right? Yeah, yeah. So that I think those three dimensions need to work together with social democracy, economic structures, and quality of life, the indicators of citizens.

Debbie Reynolds    38:33

Fantastic. That was wonderful. That's a book in and of itself, right there. Well, thank you so much. I'm so thrilled to have you on the show. This is fascinating. I love your work now definitely be able to follow the things that you're doing because I think this is so important for the future. You know, we benefit from things that you're thinking about that we're not even, you know, we don't have any imagination about what's going to be happening in the future. So thank you so much for all your work.

Zaheer Allam  39:03

Thanks a lot, Debbie, for inviting me. It was fascinating to speak to you. And yeah, I look forward to speaking to you again in the future.

Debbie Reynolds    39:10

Fantastic. 

Zaheer Allam  39:11

Thank you so much. All right. Cheers.