The Data Diva E60 - Brad Hawkins and Debbie Reynolds

Debbie Reynolds, “The Data Diva”, talks to Brad Hawkins, CEO at SaferNet, A CyberSafety & Internet Control App. We discuss cyber confusion about data privacy and data protection, his experience in IT and businesses’ lack of adequate protection, castle analogy to online protection, data permissions that go beyond purpose, the risks in third-party access, device-level protections, ransomware and internal threats, the problem of being reactive and not proactive in cybersecurity, the benefit of simplicity, the symbiotic relationship between cybersecurity and privacy, the financial value of your personal data, the intersection between technology and law,  and his hopes for Data Privacy in the future.

By popular demand, Debbie Reynolds Consulting is now offering executive briefings on emerging data privacy risks and how companies can avoid them. To learn more, visit the Executive briefings page on my website.

Transcript

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, vpn, device, cybersecurity, data, virus protection, business, ransomware, privacy, viruses, access, companies, run, connect, product, network, cyber, important, agree, entourage

SPEAKERS

Debbie Reynolds, Brad Hawkins

Debbie Reynolds  00:00

Personal views and opinions expressed by our podcast guests are their own and are not legal advice or official statements by their organizations. Hello, my name is Debbie Reynolds. This is "The Data Diva Talks" Privacy podcast, where we discuss Data Privacy issues with industry leaders around the world with information that businesses need to know now. I have a special guest on the show, Brad Hawkins. He is the CEO of SaferNet, a Cyber Safety and Internet Control app. And he hails from Colorado. Hello, Brad.

Brad Hawkins  00:42

Debbie, thank you so much for having me on your show. It's a great honor and privilege.

Debbie Reynolds  00:48

Yeah. Some people say our friend, Katrina Destree, said I'm sort of a scout. So I like to look on LinkedIn and find people who are doing like interesting things and saying stuff. So I think the thing that attracted me about your profile, you know, you're definitely into cyber awareness and trying to educate people about kind of cyber risks. So I thought this would be a fun thing to talk about. And also, talk about your trajectory in cyber and what you're doing with SaferNet I think it's really cool. So give me a little bit of background about you your journey and also what you're doing with SaferNet.

Brad Hawkins  01:33

Well, thank you so much. And I'm glad; I’m glad that you noticed we try to actually write a blog once a day from somebody on our team. So we're, we're trying to post a blog either on our Safer Net website or our SaferNet business website, alternating every day just to try to keep people up on really what's going on. And when we first took on that challenge, I thought there's no way we're going to get a blog a day. I mean, it's just that, but we probably have enough information to probably do a couple of blogs a day if we had the manpower to do it. But thanks for noticing; it’s great to know that people are paying attention and being aware of what's happening out there. But to answer your question, say SaferNet, we so love the ability that we've we've been able to create is to keep people safe online and safe includes keeping people private and keeping people from being in a place of exposing everything that they find important to themselves but we have SaferNet is a very cool thing. And I can say that because much smarter people than I develop it, I just come up with some crazy ideas, and they actually are able to figure out how to make it happen. But what we've been able to do is we've created a 24/7 Always-on VPN. And the reason that I highlight that is that most VPNs, although everybody should have a VPN to be able to be safe and private online, most VPN is don't get used because people forget to turn them on, or they do one or two things before they turn it on. And they expose themselves to all kinds of horrible viruses and issues in that in that time where it's not turned on. So ours is 24/7, Always on. It turns on when you turn on your device. And then, within that VPN, we run virus protection so that we're blocking viruses before they actually get to the device. And so it's an amazing technology to be able to get it to the place where we're not dealing with viruses on the device; we’re stopping them before they get there. And then within that entire structure in a dashboard that the VPN runs through. We also have 200 Internet controls to allow an administrator to be able to turn on and off portions of the internet or to actually see the traffic that's going through there and control that from a distance. And so we're really excited about what it is that's going on and why we're able to do such a great job in keeping people safe and private.

Debbie Reynolds  04:35

Excellent. Now is your product; I want to make sure people are clear about this. Is your product a business-to-business product, or is it a business-to-consumer or both products?

Brad Hawkins  04:47

That's a great question. We are both; actually, we have a business-to-consumer and a business-to-business product. Our business-to-business product has some different layers of administration added to it. But it's a very similar product to the business-to-consumer product. But as far as we're concerned, we believe anybody that has a device, whether you're in business, or whether you're a mom taking care of kids or a dad trying to oversee what's going on in his family, or a boss that's taking care of a business, everybody has devices connected to the same internet. And so our product is designed to help everybody with devices.

Debbie Reynolds  05:35

Right? I like what you're saying. Especially because I feel like people get confused about what they need, right, so they may buy a product that only covers one area and not another. And I think consumers just aren't educated about all the different things that they need. So I'm glad to see that you guys have a product that sort of covers kind of the concerns that people have, so that they're like, Okay, well, you know, some people are like, Okay, I bought this one product for that. And then that's it, like, and I don't need anything else. So being able to combine those types of protections, especially at the waist level, I think, is really key.

Brad Hawkins  06:16

You know, I'm so glad you brought that up because that's part of our was part of our research, in the beginning, is just talking to people, when they when we do some interviews, they say, Well, we have this product. And so we feel like we're safe, or we have this product. And so we were private and, and so when we looked at that, it's that the consumer is looking for a product to do the job. Now we all know in cybersecurity that you can't just have one, that you can't just have virus protection and feel like you're safe. Or you can't run just a VPN and feel like, oh, I'm taking care of all of our issues. So the question that I asked my developer is, how do we develop a product that includes the major portions of cybersecurity into one product so that the consumer can just simply look at it and say, Oh, if I just get that, I'm going to do 90% of my cybersecurity safety. And so that's where, where we came up with the idea of being able to put this together is combining those three major components of cybersecurity of a VPN, which includes that 24/7, always on the virus protection that everybody knows you, you need to have virus protection, and then internet controls to be able to stop traffic from going into the most dangerous areas of cybersecurity. And so that's where we've been so excited to be able to provide a tool that brings so much to the table. And what's nice is that you know, we're able to because we're doing it, it's such bulk, we're able to do it for basically the price of one, as opposed to having to pay for all three. So that's kind of fun.

Debbie Reynolds  08:01

Yeah, I like that. I like that. Tell me a little bit about just in your experience, you know, I see, you know, the stuff that you guys post, you know, you post a lot about, like the news and you know, different hacks and ransomware. And best ways for people to be saved and stuff like that, but where, you know, just in your experience, what area that businesses fall down on where you think, oh my god, I can't believe they didn't do like just this basic thing.

Brad Hawkins  08:36

Then, what's interesting to me is that the entire world has gone off-site, you know, during COVID, everybody says, Okay, well, well,\ I'm going to, you know, I'm leaving the four walls of my office, and I'm going to work from home. And then, the cybersecurity experts from the office spent so much time building firewalls in the office to keep people safe. Now that their firewalls are basically useless because now everybody is working from home. And, you know, there's, there are several different protocols that different companies are using to keep people safe. And one of the things that I find fascinating is that, that they say, Okay, you're not allowed to connect to our office without using the office VPN that we create. So, you know, they're off with their computer, they're going to Starbucks, they're traveling, they're doing all kinds of stuff, but when they access the server at their office, they have to turn on their VPN and connect. That is, I don't mean to be disrespectful to anybody, but that is one of the funniest things that I've heard. Because the intent of the firewall is to make sure a firewall in an office is to make sure that no device has come in with viruses or issues. So that it doesn't infect the network, and so now all these computers are going home and to Starbucks and all these different places, but they're not staying within that firewall, they're not. So when you're at Starbucks, and you open up your laptop, or you use your phone, and you're not connected to a VPN, you're not in that private, secure tunnel, any virus that is out there you're collecting, it's getting on your device. And then, when you actually connect with your VPN to the server in your office, that that computer is already infected. So then you have a beautiful VPN connection tool to connect to send all of the viruses that are on that device, right into the server into the office. And it's a much greater risk that this doesn't make any sense why people are allowing that in, in this day and age. So that's the reason that I feel like it's so darn important. If you've got a 24/7 Always-on VPN, no matter where you are, you're walking around with that computer, or that cell phone, connected within the firewall of the office, it's always been protected. It's always being controlled and managed. And it's not running a risk of delivering all the viruses, the Trojans, or the ransomware, or whatever it might be right into the office. It’s a different level of security that most people aren't paying attention to.

Debbie Reynolds  11:41

Wow, I love that. I've never thought about it that way. That's so true. So I think even before COVID, so this is, to me, maybe a blind spot that we had all along. And then COVID exacerbated the issue. And the issue was, you know, I give this analogy about the castle. So the issue was people thought, Okay, you're in the castle, you have all this protection and all this stuff. But people leave the castle, right? People go home, and people would like to say go to Starbucks or whatever. So they don't have that same level of protection. And I feel like, if people weren't thinking about that, or companies weren't thinking about that before COVID, they certainly weren't thinking about it after because they were thinking about, Okay, we have to continue the business. And you know, I guess what we're doing, you know, within the company, as long as it can connect to, you know, the services, we're doing fine, but then you're basically widening risks, the risks you had already, you're making it even larger.

Brad Hawkins  12:42

Exactly. That's exactly right. And you find it that people don't realize they're at risk. And that's the reason why we write so many blogs and try to educate people. Because really, if they understood the level of risk they rendered in, they'd never do it. But out of convenience, they feel like, well, I don't want to use a VPN, I don't want to do, you know, anything that would slow down my internet connection? You know, it's kind of a hassle dealing with the different VPNs. Because if I want to go to a website, I don't want to get blocked for any reason whatsoever. And, you know, all these convenient factors that we look at, in, in the in using these different tools? Well, yes, sometimes you might run into a couple of minor issues. But the reality is that you're exposing yourself to a lot of risks. It's kind of like, I don't want to deal with the hassles of locking my house when I leave. Because when I come home, it's really easy to be able to open the door and walk-in. Well, yeah, but if you take the time to put your key in and turn it, you know that everything is still there when you come back. So it's one of those simple little things that we look at and say, how do we take care of that? So, but I agree with you, there's a lot of different issues that are very, very simple to do to protect ourselves, but we just don't do it for one reason or another.

Debbie Reynolds  14:10

Right. Right. And then let me talk a little bit about Permissions. So just to give some background on this, you know, they were used as the target hat many years ago, right? That's a very famous one where the target had third-party contractor credentials, and those credentials were taken used by bad hackers to be able to get into Target, and then they stole all this information, and it was a huge deal. Right. So, a lot of times, people tell this story is sort of about a cautionary tale related to the risk of third party, which is Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah, there's a risk of the third party, but my thing is Even though the third party got in, it should have been limited what they could do once they were in. So part of it is, you know, maybe access cash flow and that analogy, you know, if, if someone were to get into the castle, or let's say someone's already in the castle, you know, how can you limit the damage that someone can do when they're in? So part of that, to me, it's like a mindset change.

Brad Hawkins  15:29

You know that is a great question as well. And the reason is that one of the things that I love about the way that our product works is that we connect a VPN to each individual device. And that VPN, it's just simply downloading an app and connecting it to the account in the cloud. And so that VPN is siloed. To make sure that there is safety within that device. So for example, if somebody would click accidentally click on a ransomware email, so they click on that ransomware email that rent and we all know that it's just a disaster after you click on that ransomware email because that ransomware then can get access to all the different components of the network. And then it has the ability to shut everything down, or you know, a Trojan as you know can, then somebody can get into every place that that particular login has access to. But when you're siloed into one tunnel, one VPN tunnel, if you accidentally click on that wrong email, it is siloed into that one device; it can not get into the rest of the network. And by making sure that it can't get into the rest of the network, what you're doing is you're also not allowing it to communicate outside of the network to its host. So when you're connected to that siloed device, worst-case scenario, and because of some virus cleaning, it doesn't happen. But the worst-case scenario is that one device is sacrificed, or there's a virus put on that one device, but it doesn't connect to the host. So it can't activate its ransomware or whatever it's doing. And number two is it can't get out of that siloed VPN to connect to the rest of the network. It's all going back up to the cloud, and in the cloud, it gets scrubbed viruses, and it stops it. So because of the architecture that we operate under, that aspect of things won't happen, if that makes sense.

Debbie Reynolds  17:51

 I love it. I have always been to me; I’ve always been about the inside of the castle; what happens? What happens there? So I'm glad to hear that this is what you're doing. And you're right, like devices, they're like the gateway into the network. So if you're doing things to protect things at a device level like you say, the kind of having your own tunnel, you know, it helps you be able to door any, you know, attack that could actually bloom and something far worse. I want to talk a bit about ransomware. So I saw an article you guys posted about you post a lot about ransomware attacks and things that happen. One article he posts caught my attention. And I think this is a great cautionary tale for organizations. And it is, you know, obviously, you know, no one wants to be ransom. No one wants ransomware. Right. But, you know, there are companies that are successful and barring those attacks, but even if you're successful, you can still have business disruptions. So just because you successfully shut it down, it doesn't mean that your business hasn't been negatively impacted.

Brad Hawkins  19:14

No, you're exactly right; you will end up getting hurt dramatically if you have to deal at any level with a ransomware attack. That is, I think across the board, and everybody would agree. That's one of the worst attacks that we can run into. And that's the reason that we feel it is so strong and so important to always stay within the proper protocol. So there's no level of education that you can educate all your employees or even your kids to get people to not click on. Very tempting to click on mean, the other day, I got one from a user on a Verizon cell phone, and I got an email saying that, that my bill was past due click here to find out. You know what I have to do about it? Well, number one, I know that it wasn't past due. And number two, you look up the URL, and it's not a Verizon URL. But it looks so legitimate that I was tempted to click on it. So you can't count on everybody never clicking on those things. But the question is, when you click on it, what is the worst-case scenario that can happen? Well, when you're running an always-on VPN, if you click on that, it's going to, you're going to figure it out quickly because it's not going to react the way you want it to react. And hopefully, you'll look and see what’s happening. But number two, if it is not allowed to communicate with its host, it can't say, hey, this was just activated; it’s not going to cause any damage to that. And so, at that point, then your virus grabber can clean off and do what it needs to do. But that's what has to be done quickly is to make sure that it doesn't get out into the network, to make sure that it's able to shut it, it can't shut down or get access to the data. If you're locked into one device and one device only, it stays safe within that. But you know, you're right, ransomware, it's just devastating. And we've got to be able to protect our companies and make sure that we're not vulnerable to that. The reality is, is we know that that 55% of attacks are successful, and we don't even notice them; we don't even realize that they're out there. And so when that is happening, some businesses could have a virus going through it right now. And it's just not activated yet. And at some point, it gets clicked over and gets activated. And you know, the reality is, is that most businesses go out of business after a ransomware attack.

Debbie Reynolds  22:14

Right. And not only that, you know, people maybe they think about it in the movies, right? So the movie, someone, you know, the cybercriminal gets near your organization, and then they know where the keys to the kingdom are, and they do all the stuff really fast. A lot of times, you know, once a cybercriminal gets in your network, they can just watch. So they may not do anything for six months or a year, you may not notice, and that's part of the art of doing cybercrime because you don't want to be noticed. You want to be able to get information, you know, maybe they want to watch the email traffic and watch how people communicate and then start sending emails from different mailboxes and saying things that, you know, people that you know, wouldn't typically say.

Brad Hawkins  23:13

Yeah, you're exactly right. And that's the scary part for any business owner is anybody in already, you know, do we have any breaches that we don't know about? And what is the danger of that? So yeah, that is a very real issue. I think I said earlier, 55% of attacks go unnoticed, and 75% of hacks are successful. Very few attacks actually get noticed and stopped. And, and that's where we think it's so darn important to be able to to be running the proper virus protection and indoor data protection all the time. You can't go for any period of time without running the proper virus and data protection.

Debbie Reynolds  24:13

I agree. So how do we? Well, here's the problem, the age-old problem that we all have in kind of privacy and cybersecurity. One is some people tend to be reactive to things, so I think this is even taught in business school, so you don't worry about a problem until you have it. And so, the problem with privacy and cybersecurity is that by the time you have a problem, it can literally be too late. So you can't really wait, so how do we move from this reactive thing that people have been taught for, you know, decades to kind of this proactive stance was higher security and privacy.

Brad Hawkins  25:01

Yeah, and the funny part of that is, is that .you know, we're all so busy as a small business owner, you're just running around trying to do absolutely everything. And you look at, well, I don't need to deal with the virus protection, because, you know, I've heard this so many times, I don't have anything that people would like to steal anyway. You know, data is what people want to steal. But in a business, if somebody doesn't have data, you probably don't have a device. And so the, but the reality is, is that people are, are getting in, and just sitting and waiting, getting into a network sitting and waiting, just like you said, and tell there's something there that they can take, you know, it's it, oftentimes, it's six to nine months before someone actually realizes they have a breach. And, and it's because they, you know, credit cards or something gets out on the web, and all of a sudden, things come crashing down around you. I believe that that to get to the place where you have, you know, we've talked about, you know, our VPN, we've talked about our virus protection, and our internet controls, if you have those basic simple things established, which is as simple as downloading an app, and connecting it to the cloud that everybody in the world knows how to do at this point, at least if you're using devices. When you have that in place, you don't have to think about it anymore, and that's really what a business owner needs is, is something that they know that they can set and walk away from and be done with that job so that they can concentrate on what makes them money. And it's kind of like buying insurance is that you know, you don't buy liability insurance because you had an issue that there was a liability on your part, you buy liability insurance so that if something happens in the future, you don't end up losing your business. And so from, from my perspective, that's the reason we had to build this in such a simple, straightforward, easy manner so that anybody could just simply download something, wash their hands out of it, and just let it operate behind the scenes to make sure that there's consistent protection put in place. But I agree with you; the majority of people want to sit back and wait until something happens. I believe that there's not an issue until there is an issue? Well, I can almost guarantee that every single person has been hacked; you just may not know about it. We have this interesting piece of our product, and it’s called The Entourage. And if somebody has a better name for it, I'd love to hear about it. We've struggled with a name, but But it's this thing that that, you know, just while we've been talking for the last 30 minutes or so, my devices have probably been attempted to be hacked, maybe they're 20 to 30 times. I mean, it just happens all the time. And, of course, with our VPN and our virus protection, we're blocking that on a regular basis. But we expose, we show the IP address, and we show that the information that is trying to access us. And the amount of attempts that happen on my devices on a regular basis, or any of our customers’ devices, is almost mind-boggling when I show it to people they're like, I can't believe this is actually happening. But it shows the number of times that somebody is trained to reach into my device and take my data. Now some of those are people that I've previously given access to, and they just continue to take. Others are malicious attempts, and I get to block them before they even try. But when you see the number of attempts, you know that there's if you don't have regular protection, you know that you're being hacked on a regular basis.

Debbie Reynolds  29:29

There's something that you say, you mentioned it just a few minutes ago, and it's kind of the point about simplicity. So I feel like, you know, I told a friend of mine, I feel like cybersecurity and even privacy folks, maybe we need like a PR campaign where we explain things in simple ways and have it be more simple for the people who really need the help. So talk to me about the importance of simplicity and Cybersecurity in terms of how you're communicating with people who really need the help.

Brad Hawkins  30:06

Yeah, and honestly, that's one of the biggest marketing strategy struggles. That that I think anybody in cybersecurity has is that cybersecurity is such a technical back end that there's so much technical work that is done to get it to the place where the data in a network is safe. And even the term network, you know, it's fascinating when you, when you talk to people about our network, people have all kinds of different definitions of a network. It's interesting; we did a little research on the term network and just asked people, What do they think of when they think about a network, and in cybersecurity, you know, exactly, you're talking about a group of devices that are all connected together. But in the outside of cybersecurity conversation, people think about networking in a marketing group or your network of people that you are friends with; I mean, everybody has different versions of that word. And so it's our job to deliver our message in the simplest way that we can. And to get it to the place where no cybersecurity people understand what we're doing, and why it's so important to be able to do, and that's why, you know, I still don't think we are as simple of communicators as we need to be, I think we are a little simpler than we were before and a little simpler than others. But when we describe that, we want to take your device and put it into a tube and scramble that data so that if anybody tries to access it in there, they won't be able to get it. And if they do, it's going to be scrambled, so you can't see it. And then within that tube, we have virus protection so that if there's a virus that gets inside that tube, we're stopping it before it actually gets to the device. In most cases, people can gather that information and understand it and say, Gosh, I'd like my data to be scrambled so that if somebody gets it, they have no idea what they got. And so if we're able to continue to work on that language to make it simpler, I think what's going to happen is people will feel more comfortable saying no, I need that, I want to get that. But what I found this, this is an interesting thing is I was talking to a guy that ran a very large business, and he sold it for millions of dollars. He had always run proper protocol and in virus protection for his business. He had an IT guy that took care of it all. And I was talking to him after he sold it. And I said, Okay, well, what do you do for virus protection now, and he said, Oh, I don't even deal with that. I used to have people that protected all of our data. And now that I don't, I'm retired, I don't have anything that needs to be protected. I don't even worry about it anymore because it's too confusing. And for someone with the intelligence that they ran a multi-million dollar operation, and they could not come up with a strategy to understand the cybersecurity component that is completely on the cybersecurity side that we're not communicating in a simple way to get someone with that level of intelligence to comprehend the importance of it. So that's why I think that simplicity just has to be in place that, you know, just simply download an app and allow us to keep your data in a safe, connected tube so that you don't end up losing control of your company.

Debbie Reynolds  34:09

Yeah, yeah. So I agree with that. Tell me we're going to segue a little bit into privacy. So tell me, I like to say cybersecurity and privacy have a symbiotic relationship. Tell me from your experience how cyber and privacy can work together.

Brad Hawkins  34:30

You know, I do agree with you. I think cybersecurity and privacy are hand in hand. Where I look at it, running a VPN is essential for privacy. It's just absolutely essential. Virus Protection is the cybersecurity portion of what we do. You know, when you're thinking about not wanting people to have access to your data, when you're thinking about not wanting people to be able to know what you're doing and, and get access to it, you think about why is it important that you have privacy? Well, a lot of times, people will say, I don't know why people would want my stuff. So I don't care. Nobody can do anything to hurt me. Other times after they've gotten burned a couple of times, they realize, oh, wait a minute, I need to be able to step in there and have some protection. But in my mind, just, you know, as we know, some of the largest companies in the world, and the most wealthy companies in the world have free products. So you look at that and say, How in the world can that happen? You know, places like Google, how does Google provide everything that they provide for free? Well, it's because they're taking all of your personal information, gathering it, and selling it. And you look at that and say, Okay, well, that, that helps me, and I don't get hurt by it. So I may as well just let him do it. But yet that data is so valuable that we've created multi-billion dollar companies with our data. How about if we flipped that a little bit? If we stopped that and said, you know what, our data is so valuable, I don't know why it's valuable because you're taking it and selling it, making money. But what if we flipped that and said, if it's so valuable, then you have to pay me for it, instead of you just taking it from me and selling it. Now, I don't necessarily believe that it's not valuable. But for those people that believe it's not valuable, I would say that, you know, it's time that we reverse it and hold on to that data. So in my mind, if we're able to stop people from getting data through, say, for an ad or through other means, and then we starve the companies from being able to get our data, then we have the ability to turn it around and sell it to them if we choose to. But then we need to understand what that data is and to decide if we really want to give it up for $1 or not give it up for $1. But it's a little bit of a free for all, where, you know, we like to say, well, I don't have anything of value. So does it matter? If I take it? Well? How are we getting these billion-dollar companies if they if you really have something that is not a value? So that's a big question. But I think it's highly important that we start taking our data private, making it to the place where we are the ones making our decisions on what we're giving up and what we're not.

Debbie Reynolds  37:40

Right. I think it is all about agency. And so you know, right now, we feel like we have no control over our data and what happens to it. And we have a lack of visibility and what was being done with this data in some way. You know, I have friends in Europe, some who feel very passionate about, they don't like people to think about data in a monetize type of way, they feel like very, you know, your data has representation of yourself and stuff like that. But I feel like if you don't put a price tag on it, people don't understand, you know, maybe they'll think about it differently in that way. Right? So maybe they'll think, you know, like on the dark web, your health record is worth, like, you know, 10 times more than your credit card information. And why is that, you know, they can sell that to other people, you know, they can infer things about you, they can put the information to risk models, you know, maybe you'll get turned down for insurance or something based on something that maybe was inferred somewhere that you are not were aware of, and may not even be true for that, for that matter. So I think, you know, for us being able to, I would like to know, even if even if I decide I don't want to sell my data, I will love to know when it was the value of it is someone else.

Brad Hawkins  39:01

I completely agree. And that's the reason that we have this entourage feature in our dashboard is to show people the data or the attempts to gather information off of our device to reveal it. Because as far as I know, there's nobody that's revealing this, this these attacks that you know this continual entourage that keeps trying to gather your information. But when you start looking at it and look into the companies and look into the IP addresses and looking at, at what's coming at you on a regular basis, and then you turn off SaferNet, and you realize, wait a minute, all of those companies and IP addresses are now accessing my device. There's no way in the world you'd run without having SaferNet or a similar type of product on your device to be able to make sure that you're stopping that. That entourage has just continual access to your devices. And it's just when you start realizing it. And it's just this horrible feeling that people can access your device, take whatever they want out of it, and you're sitting there, and there’s nothing you can do about you to stop them. So yes, I agree, we need to be able to monetize what it is that we have and choose whether or not we want to sell it or not. But we need to get to the place where we stop these companies from being able to just gather our information for no value to us.

Debbie Reynolds  40:37

Right. And, you know, I, I work at the intersection of like technology and law. So I talk a lot about both, you know, interchange back and forth. And even though we lack a haze strategy on a national level for Data Privacy, we are we have for protection sort of nationally, but that's only because the 50 states have data breach notification requirements and data breach requirements for different companies. But, you know, I'm realizing, and I think this goes back to the point I was trying to make about being proactive about stuff. Because regulation, even though we need regulation, and there's a place for regulation, regulation is too late. And redress is too late for the harm that can happen to people. So it's really important that we take these steps, whether they be, you know, organizational measures, technical measures to be able to protect data, protect the privacy of people, before it gets to a place where it has to get to a court system or something like that. What are your thoughts?

Brad Hawkins  42:01

Well, I agree, everything that has been happening too late in the chain, because it's all after everybody's already lost what they are losing, and until there's consequences for that, it will continue to be that way. But that's why I believe that it's so important for people to be proactive in their privacy. And, and look at it is, excuse me look at it as something that is important, as opposed to It's not worth their time or, you know, I'm not really losing anything if I don't see that I've lost something. You know, I was talking to somebody recently about the fact that you're losing data. And he said, Well, the way I see it, and the way you describe it, it sounds like I'm sharing it because I'm not really losing it; I still have it. And it's just such an odd view. Because and these large companies have just convinced us that somehow we are getting value out of it, when the truth is, they are getting value out of it, we're not getting value out of it. Now, they might be able to sell us something a little faster. But you know what, if you don't know what you need, if you don't know what you want to go out and look for yourself, then you probably don't need it or didn't even know that you wanted it. So it's not like we're going to lose anything. But if we don't take this privacy seriously and be proactive to stop people from being able to gather our personal information, whether we know what they're using it for or not, it doesn't make any difference. They're still taking our personal information and gaining, not just a little bit but gaining an enormous amount of money based on this data. And so I couldn't agree with you more, Debbie, and I'm so grateful that you're shining a spotlight on this because people need to understand that this is not okay. People are not allowed to take data to make a profit and not value what it is, not give us value for what it is that they have. So and that's, that's really a big reason why it's so important to me that we developed our product, the way it is, is that we blocked people from gathering our personal information with your they're not allowed to gather our personal information unless we personally give them permission to get it. And if we give them permission to get it, then they can have it, but if we don't want them to get it, then we will block them from being able to access it.

Debbie Reynolds  44:45

 Excellent. So if it were the world, according to Brad, and we did everything you said, what would be your wish for privacy or cybersecurity in a world where we, you know, technology, people, anything?

Brad Hawkins  45:02

That is a funny question. But if it was the world according to, to me, I would say that there is not a device that is allowed to access the internet without proper virus protection and a strong 24/7 always-on VPN, that you would just there would be no connectivity without a VPN. And if people are using the internet without a VPN, it is to me one of the riskiest maneuvers that you can do, and it and really, the VPN is kind of the silver bullet to cybersecurity, in my opinion. But with combining the VPN with virus protection so that we're stopping the viruses before it actually reaches the device, it's like,  when our developers came up with that strategy, I just thought that is the coolest thing. And I can't take credit for it. Because much smarter people were able to figure out how to make that happen. But the key is, is that we combine those aspects that make it so that you can use what my opinion is the greatest invention of all time since the industrial revolution is the internet. And to use it in a safe manner by simply having a device that scrambles your data and keeps people from accessing you. It's like the biggest no-brainer ever, in my mind.

Debbie Reynolds  46:43

I like that answer. That's great. So tell us a little bit about how people can contact you and your company if they're interested to learn more about SaferNet.

Brad Hawkins  46:56

I would love to have people access SaferNet.com, SAFERNET.com. We have also have SaferNetBusiness.com. But it is as simple as creating an account and downloading an app, and connecting that app to the account. I mean, it's just a simple little process that absolutely anybody that knows how to download an app can do. Although we've got tremendous customer service, we have people that rave about our customer service because our customer service people truly care about our customers. And you know, they will spend whatever time need be to be able to get a SaferNet operating correctly within your network. So but yes, if you just contact us through SaferNet.com, We would love to take care of you.

Debbie Reynolds  48:04

Very good. Thank you so much. Well, I appreciate you being on the podcast today. This was very eye-opening, and I'm glad you're able to share and definitely continue to share all that really great content and information. It's very educational, and we all need to be reminded all the time about cyber security.

Brad Hawkins  48:23

Well, Debbie, you're doing a great, great thing bringing awareness to these such important pieces of cybersecurity. So thank you from the bottom of my heart for doing such a valuable job for the community at large. So thank you.

Debbie Reynolds  48:43

You're welcome. That's very sweet. Well, I will talk to you soon, okay, thank you.