The Data Diva E185 - Debra Brookes and Debbie Reynolds

Debbie Reynolds “The Data Diva” talks to Debra Brookes, Former Deputy Virtual Currency Chief of the Research and Innovation Division, New York State Department of Financial Services. We discuss her career journey, which includes over 20 years of legal experience in enforcement and regulatory spaces, her transition to cryptocurrency regulation, and her involvement in investigating the Twitter hack. The conversation also touches on current concerns in the world related to virtual currency and cryptocurrency.

Brookes raises the alarm about the lack of comprehensive federal regulation in the cryptocurrency market, citing ongoing instances of corruption and fraud. She underscores the significance of New York's leadership in crypto regulation but points out the inherent limitations of state-specific laws, which allow companies to exploit regulatory gaps by operating across state borders. We discuss the concept of anonymity in cryptocurrency transactions, reflecting on the original vision of blockchain technology and its evolution towards increased transparency. We also explore the potential of digital wallets and the use of biometric data for security, expressing reservations about their reliability and potential vulnerabilities. We delve into the accessibility and safety aspects of virtual currency transactions, particularly for individuals unfamiliar with cryptocurrency. We also discuss the challenges faced by the unbanked population and the potential use of cell phones for virtual currency transactions, emphasizing the role of digital wallets in identity verification. Additionally, we touch on the risks associated with keeping significant amounts of cash at home and the potential for virtual currencies to provide a safer alternative. Debra underscores the importance of establishing robust regulatory frameworks and building trust in technology to mitigate the risks associated with data privacy and technological advancements.

We discuss the necessity of comprehensive data privacy laws to safeguard citizens, particularly young children, from online threats. Debra shares a harrowing example of a teenager who fatally overdosed on a drug purchased through a social media platform, underscoring the urgency of regulating technology to prevent such tragedies. We also emphasize the need for laws that respect innovation while prioritizing consumer protection, drawing from their experiences in the financial sector. Our conversation highlights the complex balance between fostering technological advancement and mitigating risks to protect consumers in an evolving digital landscape and Debra’s hope for Data Privacy in the future.

Many thanks to the Data Diva Talks Privacy Podcast Privacy Visionary, Smartbox AI, for sponsoring this episode and supporting our podcast. Smartbox.ai, named British AI Company of the Year, provides cutting-edge AI, helps privacy and technology experts uniquely master their Data Request challenges, and makes it easier to comply with Global data protection requirements, FOIA requests, and various US state privacy regulations. Their technology is a game-changer for anyone needing to sift through complex data, find data,  and redact sensitive information. With clients across North America and Europe and a major partnership with Xerox, Smartbox.ai is bringing their data expertise right to our doorstep, offering insights into navigating the complex world of global data laws For more information about Smartbox AI, visit their website at https://www.smartbox.ai. Enjoy the show.

Transcript

43:39

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, blockchain, privacy, virtual currency, dfs, companies, cryptocurrency, years, data, regulated entities, blockchain technology, new york, trust, bitcoin, unbanked, attempting, digital wallets, comprehensive, call, concerned

SPEAKERS

Debra Brookes, Debbie Reynolds

Debbie Reynolds  00:00

Many thanks to the Data Diva Talks Privacy Podcast Privacy Visionary, Smartbox AI, for sponsoring this episode and supporting our podcast. Smartbox.ai, named British AI Company of the Year, provides cutting-edge AI, helps privacy and technology experts uniquely master their Data Request challenges, and makes it easier to comply with Global data protection requirements, FOIA requests, and various US state privacy regulations. Their technology is a game-changer for anyone needing to sift through complex data, find data,  and redact sensitive information. With clients across North America and Europe and a major partnership with Xerox, Smartbox.ai is bringing their data expertise right to our doorstep, offering insights into navigating the complex world of global data laws For more information about Smartbox AI, visit their website at https://www.smartbox.ai. Enjoy the show.

Debbie Reynolds  00:00

Personal views and opinions expressed by our podcast guests are their own and are not legal advice or official statements by their organizations.

Hello, my name is Debbie Reynolds; they call me "The Data Diva". This is "The Data Diva" Talks Privacy podcast, where we discuss Data Privacy issues with industry leaders around the world, with information that businesses need to know now. I have a very special guest on the show; it has only taken us about two years to get to this point. Her name is Debra Brookes. She is the former Deputy Virtual Currency Chief for the Research and Innovation Division of the New York State Department of Financial Services. Welcome.

Debra Brookes  00:45

Hi, Debbie. Thank you for inviting me. I know it's been a long and torturous road to get to this point, but I'm so happy to be here talking to you and your audience today.

Debbie Reynolds  00:58

Well, thank you so much. Your expertise in this area has really fascinated me. I'm always looking for people who are in those emerging tech spaces as you are, and I would totally love for you to be able to tell your journey into your career. I think it's fascinating.

Debra Brookes  01:17

Thank you know, my name is Debra Brookes, I hail from the Bronx, New York. But my roots, like my family, are deeply embedded in the Caribbean. I've had over 20 years of legal experience and enforcement in regulatory spaces. During the first half of my career, I worked as a Federal prosecutor with the US Department of Justice's Antitrust division, where I investigated and prosecuted white-collar crimes; the later half, until recently, was with the New York State Department of Financial Services. I started at DFS in enforcement, where I brought in over a billion dollars in fines but shifted to cryptocurrency when I was promoted into the position of Deputy Virtual Currency Chief. I held that role for three years. My primary duties at that time were to supervise regulated crypto entities in New York State to ensure that they engaged in safe and sound practices in New York. But most importantly, Debbie, I am a wife, a mother of two, and a black belt in Taekwondo.

Debbie Reynolds  02:27

That's amazing. That's amazing. You have to tell me your Girl Scout Cookie story.

Debra Brookes  02:33

Well, how I got this position, interestingly enough, was from Girl Scout cookies. I am a proud mother of a Girl Scout. And on her behalf, I was selling Girl Scout cookies. So, I went to a particular person at that time who was in charge of putting together what we now refer to as the research and innovation group. It was called by a different name. I reached out, I went to this individual who I was friendly with. I asked him, hey, would you like to buy some Girl Scout cookies, and he said yes and bought 10 boxes of cookies. So, of course, he became my favorite customer. So we started talking, we got to know each other. He got to know my past and my bona fides. He asked me at that time, am I familiar with cryptocurrency? I'm like, yeah, because I joined DFS in 2013. At the time, the superintendent, Ben Lowski, was really pushing to create a robust cryptocurrency regime in New York and had actually held what he called a Bitcoin hearing in New York, including some keynote speakers. So I had some understanding of it, but that was pretty much it. He lent me a book, which I was trying to remember the name of the book, and of course, I cannot remember it. But I really got into the book. He later invited me to a training on crypto basics. At the time, I was working in the enforcement unit, but I was not in that unit. So it was based on that experience that really got me curious about crypto, and I really was interested in cryptocurrency more so than I was when I first joined DFS. Fast forward to 2020. I'm not sure if you remember the Twitter hack that took place where I was asked to join an investigative team because my investigative background investigating the Twitter hack was just for context. In the summer of 2020 turned out it was just one hacker, but at the time, we thought it was more coordinated. This particular hacker was able to gain entry into Twitter by social engineering, purporting to be a Twitter employee. Then used the access to a backdoor, and not only did he attempt to sell certain key accounts, but more importantly, was able to gain access to the blue checkmarks, which, at that time, were more prominent than it is today. He took over certain accounts like President Obama and Biden, that we actually, interestingly enough, took over the account of a dead rapper called XXtension. We remember him, and he was basically asking if you give me money or give me Bitcoin, I'll double your money; he was successful in obtaining about over $100,000 worth of Bitcoin at that time, but worth more today since the price of Bitcoin has shot up. I was asked to join the Twitter investigation. I already had a background in cryptocurrency. I joined the group that was at the time headed by Matt Palmer, Matt Siegel, and John Blattmacher. We really clicked and got along very well, and they liked my work and liked me so much. They invited me to join research and innovation. As I said, the rest is history.

Debbie Reynolds  06:13

That's fascinating. I love that story. What don't people understand about cryptocurrency or virtual currency that they probably need to know?

Debra Brookes  06:24

That's a very good question. For me, virtual currency or cryptocurrency in the word can be used interchangeably. It is incredibly complex, in the sense that what folks think is complex, and in a lot of ways, it is. But if you have a background or understanding in traditional finance, or FinTech, those and other services and technologies, I have observed this at my time at DFS, it gets folded into the blockchain. So oftentimes, most of the products and services that I've observed are not necessarily new; it's new to the blockchain, but it was more of a copy-and-paste type of job with some modifications to adapt to the blockchain and regulation.

Debbie Reynolds  07:19

What's happening right now in the world, as it relates to things like virtual currency and cryptocurrency, that concerns you most?

Debra Brookes  07:27

Well, I think what's really concerning is the lack of a Federal regulation. As you know, the framework that we have today is largely unregulated, and there is no Federal framework. They've been attempts for many years, mostly without success. So you're largely left with the States to take on the burden. Thankfully, you have States like New York, who has been leading the charge or approaching the tenure market and leave. We believe we're about to approach the regulation that came into effect, I believe, in 2015. So the 10-year anniversary is forthcoming. I think not having a comprehensive Federal regulation is problematic, and that has led to a lot of the eruptions that we are seeing in real time on a continuous basis. I'll just make this example. Yesterday, as you know, Sam Bankman Fried was sentenced to 25 years in jail. That was because he was the founder of a company called FTX that claimed to have all these controls in place. It turned out he had virtually no controls in place to ensure capital adequacy to ensure that consumers were protected to ensure that FTX, was running in a safe and sound environment. That's always was a concern of mine. When I was a former regulator, our licensees conducted themselves in a safe and sound environment. You have someone like FTX, who was completely not engaged in safe and sound practices but reported and presented themselves to the world that they were. So you have this unregulated market, run by entities who, if they're not in New York, or in California or other States that have comprehensive crypto programs, you run the risk of fraud of that magnitude. Institutions that are really attempting to do wrong or really attempting to do bad work. Whether it's through through a Ponzi scheme or traditional frauds that we all know and I'm not thrilled about, for me that lack of a comprehensive Federal program I think, is troubling. New York, being one of the primary leaders in the United States on crypto regulation, is very good. But I've always said this to my co-workers and even those outside; this is my personal view that we always have. I call it the 49 and one problem. The laws in New York really only apply to New York and does not apply, technically, outside New York. So if companies could park shop in New Jersey and just kind of rub their noses at New York by saying, hey, we're not in New York, we're across the river, and we're not regulated by you. So leave us alone.

Debbie Reynolds  10:42

What are your thoughts about anonymity? I've heard this on two different sides of the fence. One is I think, a lot of times when people think about cryptocurrency, they think about criminal activity. Because it's hard, like you say, because there's no Federal regulation, there isn't any strong way to really track people who are using it for a bad purpose. But then, on the flip side, I think I've seen people try to use blockchain technology and cryptocurrency as a way to identify people to make them identifiable. What are your thoughts about that?

Debra Brookes  11:17

Well, in a way, when Satoshi Nakamoto, who is the founder, if you will, of Bitcoin and the Bitcoin Blockchain posted his papers back in 2008, I believe the focus was to have some sense of independence from the government because during that time period, as you recall back in 2008, we just had the implosion of Lehman Brothers and other prominent financial companies, and this was a way for people to have trust in the institution of finance without relying on government, a primary source of funding. Back in 2009, it was more pseudonymous, where if you look at the transaction history, you would see the transaction history, but the person's name was not part of that transaction. It just had a series of letters and numbers that we got the hashtag. So that really was the anonymous part that you could not trace the transactions to an individual; of course, with agencies and government really stamping and clamping down on ensuring that they can identify the person who is part of that transaction, you do have some more transparency that was probably not intended by Satoshi when he created or developed this Bitcoin blockchain. Of course, we recognize the reason for that is to ensure that no bad actors are using the blockchain for illicit means. In fact, I'm not sure if you remember; there was a hack with BitFenix, maybe about five or so years ago. The money was essentially, in a wallet that was inactive for many years. Then, inexplicably, out of the blue, there were some movements in the money, and even though, again, you don't know who owns that wallet, you don't know where that money is going with the technology that the government has in the private industry has, they were able to arrest the perpetrators, which was a husband and wife team. So you now can do some reverse engineering, if you will, and identify people, which, again, I believe, and this is just my own opinion, strays from what Satoshi was trying to accomplish.

Debbie Reynolds  13:54

What do you think about the future of digital wallets? I think I see people using maybe the future more of crypto and blockchain together as a way to help in identity and digital identity, especially for maybe people who are unbanked or underbanked. To be able to be in digital systems. What do you think?

Debra Brookes  14:18

Digital wallets, as you know, are a very interesting platform where you have the private and public keys to gain access to the wallet. Understand that most hacks are likely to happen with the wallet where a bad actor gains access to the wallet, or I'm sure if you've probably heard a person had Bitcoin in his computer and he threw it away that the computer away and now as it's worth billions of dollars, and it's in a landfill somewhere in Europe. So I think to your question of what I think about the future of digital wallets, I think it really needs to be protected to prevent activities that could infiltrate, whether, through bad actors who are social engineering, etc.; we want to prevent that from happening. I recently read that companies like Worldcoin are focusing on biometric data, like an iris scan that would allow an added layer of protection, similar to our phones, where if we want, we can use our fingerprint or our face as a secondary identification system.

Debbie Reynolds  15:36

Yeah, I think I'm always concerned about biometrics use in that way. Because, first of all, people's biometrics can change. If you have an ailment, your eye or iris will look different. If you are older, or younger, if you have an operation. Then I'm always concerned about people's biometric information being in a cauldron of data information that is hackable that other people can use for different purposes. What do you think?

Debra Brookes  16:03

Exactly. I think that's exactly right, and that opinion is not a solo opinion. Recently, Portugal halted the use of biometric data through its devices because they had concerns not only about the vulnerabilities but really concerned about young children's information being in that data packet and subjected to vulnerabilities. So it is definitely a challenge that companies are trying to solve, particularly in the United States, without a comprehensive framework in place or left to the devices of the companies to do right by their customers, which I think is always a challenge for any company.

Debbie Reynolds  16:56

Yeah, I think that's true. I think, for me, finance has been really the top of the chain in terms of being able to protect people's money, the things they think are valuable, and also protecting people's privacy, making sure they keep private what they want to have private. So in this new world, where we have all these digital advances that are outside of more regulated systems, it's just very Wild West. What do you think the future holds for things like virtual currency?

Debra Brookes  17:28

You know, that is the trillion-dollar question. It's the question that I've been asked, and I have asked: is crypto here to stay? I think the answer is yes. Particularly in recent months, EFT is now being introduced into the system, which has really driven the price of Bitcoin to record levels. I can't see the price of Bitcoin dropping anytime soon because there's going to be a major, what they call a halving event in mid-April, which I can anticipate seeing the price of Bitcoin and other virtual currencies like Ethereum shoot up. I think for me, as a former regulator, the question I always think of is what is the Federal government going to do? I mean, the US government, they said in the beginning, there is no comprehensive Federal framework, and probably not for lack of trying on people's parts. As you're probably aware President Biden issued an Executive Order two years ago that was pretty comprehensive in its directive, but I haven't heard really much in the way of progress. That doesn't mean it's not happening in the background. That just means I'm not seeing the fruits of that order. At least where I was hoping, though, the federal government, once it gets involved with a comprehensive framework, that might include the issuance of staple points because there are some benefits to the blockchain. It is a lot cleaner; transactions move faster. Existing transactions with ACH and Swift, there are problems. I don't think anyone will deny that. It's antiquated; it's clunky. It needs a solution, and the blockchain technology is a really efficient solution. So first, I don't think blockchain is going away anytime soon. Thinking about the vision and the future of Web 3, where I believe blockchain is gonna be folded into the Web. I just don't see blockchain technology going away because even though we may have concerns, they do have some positives. Now again, with the Federal government, if they get involved in creating it on blockchain and issuing its own coins, that might be a game changer.

Debbie Reynolds  20:04

I never thought about that. While the government having their own coins, I have heard people trying to virtualize traditional Fiat in some ways, but I hadn't really thought about the government having their own blockchain and having their own currency; I thought it was really interesting that places like PayPal, you can actually buy virtual currencies there. I thought that was pretty unique and game-changing, especially for people who don't really understand cryptocurrency and will want to participate in it or invest in it; that may be a safe way with a provider who knows you and that you know you don't have to be concerned about what do you think?

Debra Brookes  20:47

I don't want to go into a lot of detail about PayPal because PayPal was one of my regulated entities when I was with DFS. What I can say is it does help if you want to engage in buying and selling of virtual currency, but you're scared to do it because you're not really sure how to do it, and you just have more questions than answers, a company that's known and have a long term relationship with not just PayPal, but any reputable, I'm emphasizing the word reputable, company that you feel comfortable doing business with? Absolutely, it's definitely going to help. I think the larger question is really focusing on the unbanked because the unbanked has been a challenge; as you know, they're unbanked for a reason, largely because they may not have access to banks or financial institutions, or they may not just have trust in them. So you have to deal with these. When obstacles if you will, in convincing people to participate in virtual currency. One way is through the use of their cell phones; even though you may not have a bank account, many people who are unbanked have cell phones, I can see the leveraging of cell phone usage to allow the expansion and use of virtual currency, particularly if you're trying to send remittance from one country to another. You don't want to go to, I don't want to say the names, but a company that charges a higher fee than if you just sent it through a company that allows you to send it through blockchain technology versus sending it through traditional means.

Debbie Reynolds  22:35

That question is really fascinating, because I think that it can be especially around the digital identity part. I think that having digital wallets and digital currencies for people who maybe have not traditionally been in banking systems can really help with that identity verification because there's a huge problem, I think, around the world.

Debra Brookes  22:56

Yeah, it's a problem here in America; there are people from New York. Early on in my career at DFS, that was an issue that we had to discuss: how do you approach the unbanked? How do you get them involved? Because having your money under a mattress gives you safety. But of course, having significant amounts of cash in your home has risks; somebody may break into your house, your house may burn down, and you always have risk associated no matter where your money is placed, which is why it's important to have controls in place, principally through a regulatory framework. But absent that, though, really the reputation of the entity.

Debbie Reynolds  23:46

You mentioned your concern about the US not yet having a Federal framework around digital virtual currencies. I guess I have a twin concern about the US not having a Federal framework around privacy because I think those issues come up a lot. What are your thoughts?

Debra Brookes  24:04

I think you're absolutely right. As you know, the US does not have a large framework that deals specifically with blockchains. In fact, when we look at the history of Data Privacy in the United States, it's really lacking compared to our European counterparts. I was listening to one of your previous podcasters, and I don't recall his name, but I think you're highly regarded in his family, and I believe they call you Aunty, and hopefully, that will resonate with who that person is.

Debbie Reynolds  24:36

Yes, yes.

Debra Brookes  24:39

Something that he said really struck me which I totally agree with. I recognize that European countries truly value their privacy. It was accused that the US doesn't, and I believe he said words to the effect of, well, the US does value privacy, but not as much as our European counterparts, and that is so true with a lack of a Federal comprehensive privacy program. If you look at the history of the enactment of HIPAA, the Gramm Leach Bailey Act, and the Children's Online Privacy Act, those are targeting specific industries, leaving us largely exposed. Really, I don't want to say at the mercy of States, but really placing the burdens on the States, and it's unfortunate that many States, New York included, really don't have robust, comprehensive Data Privacy laws in place. I checked in preparation for our discussion; I was stunned to see that only 13 States have a comprehensive program. That is stunning. New York has something. But it needs more, in my opinion, recognizing DFS in its efforts to really step up when there's really not much out there attempted to put together some type of Data Privacy update in its regulation under New York's what we call 23 NYCRR 500, or Part 500, for short, which really focuses on cybersecurity regulations. It focuses on having the regulated entities have a robust Data Privacy program, obviously, of course, you can see the problem right off the bat, which is it only applies to regulated entities of New York State DFS. And that's just one aspect. Granted, it's great for the regulated entities that are subject to the cybersecurity regulations. But that's about 30 or so licensees. We have many more who are outside the bounds of New York and not subject to Part 500. We have companies that have been in New York and engage in virtual currency business activity in New York without the department's permission or approval; you have that problem. And it is very concerning for me and probably for you, too, as the "The Data Diva" that we need a more comprehensive program. On a national level. If nothing else, as you read all of the problems that we are experiencing with fraud, with hacks with ransomware. Interestingly enough, I came across a Data Privacy report. I could share that with you afterward, from a San Francisco-based company called Aleo Network Foundation, where part of their motto is where cryptocurrency meets privacy. They're really attempting to create a Web 3 Internet that really recognizes and respects privacy, and in this report that was issued earlier this month, there were a couple of revelations, including, and again, you always have to be mindful that when these are self-funded, you have to have a healthy dose of skepticism. Nonetheless, of the 2000 people who were surveyed, almost 80% were concerned about Data Privacy, and even more startling, at least for me, was almost half felt that the tech companies really did not have control over how their own personal data is being used. That for me, in my personal opinion, is a really troubling way that we have to live in this world, particularly when we are seeing and reading or scrolling. If you have social media platforms like my younger kids do, your information is going out there into the ether. And it's being used, and it's being manipulated, and it could hurt you. What I find more interesting is in the same report, that the younger generations, like Gen Z are concerned, but not as concerned as the baby boomers, which I thought was like, wow, so the baby boomers, 85% are very concerned, compared to 68% from Gen Z years. So that means we're losing, if you will, the education of our young people to explain to them why is important to protect your privacy. I say this to my kids at all times. My mother used to say you protect the most important gift you have: your name. You must protect your name at all times. I take that in the real world and in the virtual world. If information about me is being used to harm me, and there's no comprehensive government framework on the Federal level, and definitely not in New York State, I think that's concerning.

Debbie Reynolds  30:22

I agree completely, you know, as we're moving into a situation where so much of our life is digital, I think it would be hard for you to move through life without being connected in some way to digital systems. People feel that their data is being maybe misused or abused, and companies are losing control over it. It can hurt you. Absolutely. My sister told me, she said, why are people using my data to hurt me?

Debra Brookes  30:49

It's a good question.

Debbie Reynolds  30:50

Yeah, I give you data to help me. But yeah, it's hurt me in some way.

Debra Brookes  30:55

When I first signed up for a social media platform, I don't know, 15 or so years ago, at the time, you weren’t thinking about Data Privacy; you were just thinking, oh, wow, great. This is a way of posting stuff and communicating with friends outside of emails; you never think of the long-term consequences. Until it's, you don't want to say too late because I don't think it's too late. But I think we're at a critical point where decisions and action need to take place. Because as technology moves, and now we're shifting into AI and AI has always been part of the conversation. But this new level of AI with ChatGPT, and finding out that the founder of ChatGPT is also the founder of Worldcoin, who wants to use biometric data to if you want to use it to verify or even earn points. That's where you have to ask, hey, companies, what are you doing? Are you doing the job that you're saying you're doing because they can you know, that old adage, talk is cheap?

Debbie Reynolds  32:09

Yeah.

Debra Brookes  32:09

I think people FTX I really wish they asked more questions. Have you done audits? Are you verifying what you're saying? Through an independent audit trail, not just an audit trail? What are you doing to ensure my privacy? And getting back to that report a little bit? Again, the report views the term cryptocurrency companies, and I'm not sure what that means. One of the things it listed that I really kind of was taken aback when it was concluded that these companies are among the least trusted regarding Data Privacy and security, where 10% of the respondents either expressed a great deal of trust or 14% expressed a fair amount. So that's less than 25% of those who responded have some trust or high degree of trust in these companies. So that means 75% don't trust these companies to manage their Data Privacy, and why is that?

Debbie Reynolds  33:18

Right.

Debra Brookes  33:20

I think we kind of know the why is, yeah, we only have a short period of time that we'd set here and delve into the why. I think it might be Christmas 2024. But by the time we finished every avenue of the whys that are known and unknown.

Debbie Reynolds  33:38

Right, right. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. There's so much swirling around. Right now, so much technology. I'm always concerned when people think the technologist answers all problems, but I don't think that's true. Also, I know, just as you say, companies want people to move into these digital realms; we have to solve a trust problem before people can truly feel like these things are a better fit for them. They can really help that adoption. What do you think?

Debra Brookes  34:08

I love that I actually wrote it down to solve a trust problem. That is a good point. As I mentioned earlier, there's a reason why there are large segments of the population that are not banked. That does not mean or does not include that they don't have access to a bank. There are banks here in New York, but there are people who refuse to open a bank account. So, there is a trust issue. There's always a trust issue, and that delves into the history of fraud, the cynicisms of it, if that makes sense, where you see the collapse of a particular institution. You see the government bailing that institution out because as we later learned, they're too big to fail. Then you have people complaining that nobody was held responsible to their satisfaction, so that accentuates the trust or confirms, on the flip side, the lack of trust. So how do you get people to trust you when, in their view, as I read the history, and I did a deep dive into the financial crisis in 2008, which really spurred, if you will, the blockchain technology, as we know it today, it was in large part in response to it? It's amazing how people forget that Bitcoin and blockchain technology were released; at least the white papers, if you will, were released on October 31, 2008. That was weeks away before Barack Obama was elected President of the United States and weeks following the collapse of Lehman Brothers, which was a big shock to the financial institution to the point where it nearly collapsed our financial institution; at least, that's my understanding, from reading the history books. It's always a problem when you don't have trust in either your government, which is getting more perilous now. Because you have so much information out there that you have to question. If you don't know your history, if you're not someone who is savvy, you don't need a degree but understand the history of this country; someone will tell you information that's completely untrue. But you believe it as true because you trust that person who's saying, and you don't trust the government or the media, who's telling you no, that's not true. So you have this kind of breakdown and trust. So it's not just the banking or the financial institution that has a trust. The country has a trust problem, and we're gonna have a bigger trust problem as we march towards November 2024 with the election.

Debbie Reynolds  37:14

Yeah, it was all stuff happening. AI is really becoming very precarious. If it were the world according to you, Debra, and we did everything you said, what would be your wish for privacy or even virtual currency anywhere in the world, whether that be regulation, human behavior, or technology?

Debra Brookes  37:37

Well, I think if I had my druthers for Data Privacy, it's all about having a comprehensive framework for Congress to sit down and create a law that protects its citizens and really has to not just pass a law, but give it some power if we will do it. Have the State supplement if it wants to add more protections to citizens in the State, should be that supplemental. Data Privacy wouldn't encompass everything, including cryptocurrency and blockchain technology, because there is a lot of personal information in the blockchain that you want to be protected if you go into the dark web. I haven't, but I've been reading enough about it to know what's in there. It's pretty frightening. I'm scared to even ask someone to go into the dark web to see what information they have about me. I'm sure the dark web knows more about me than I did. But really, you know, the president of the world or the leader of the world, as you asked, definitely has a robust framework around Data Privacy, particularly with young children. They are so vulnerable to these scammers, to naysayers, to misleading information. I recently heard that, and I did not even know you can do this, that a young teenager overdosed on Fentanyl. The parents found him, unfortunately, OD'ed, and he was not able to be revived. This young boy was able to buy the Fentanyl through one of those social media platforms for deliveries. I was stunned by this. They made an order, they paid for it, and the dealer shipped by mail the Fentanyl or whatever the drug was that was laced rather with Fentanyl to this young boy, and he passed away overnight after taking one pill and trying not to go too far because you did give me this absolutist power. So I'm going for it. Take children, but be mindful. But we also have laws that really respect people's ability to innovate. That's how we've gotten to this point where we are so advanced technologically; this is because we have been really good at allowing folks to innovate. But we want to do so with the risk No, you want to do so with the risk mitigated, and you want to do so in protecting consumers. That was one of the areas where, when I was at DFS, we were always focused on consumer protection. That has always been the case since I've been at DFS consumer protection, ensuring that regardless of the customer type, they should walk into any one of the regulated entities and feel that they have a sense of trust with that company. If they don't, they know who to turn to to have their problem or their issue solved.

Debbie Reynolds  40:57

That's a great list. That's a great list. I second that, I second that.

Debra Brookes  41:01

Okay, good. Good. Now, we just need somebody to make me ruler of the world, and then we can all have happy lives.

Debbie Reynolds  41:09

That's right. Well, thank you so much for being on the show. It's been a pleasure to have you on the show. What's the best way for people to reach out to you for consulting opportunities?

Debra Brookes  41:21

Well, thank you, Debbie, for giving me the opportunity to talk to you and your listeners, if they wish to contact me, they could do so via my LinkedIn page, which is Debra Brookes. Don't forget that last E. A little fun fact: the E and my last name are the common British spelling. Whereas Brooks without the E is the common American spelling. So when you think of me, just think of me as a Brit, and add the E.

Debbie Reynolds  41:53

I'll remember that. I won't forget that now. Oh, that's so funny. Well, thank you again for being on the show. Actually, the episode that you had mentioned where the person said that I was their daughter's Aunt, Jeff Salling?

Debra Brookes  42:11

Yes.

Debbie Reynolds  42:12

He's the chief of staff at Moderna, their legal department. He's a dear friend of mine. So super sweet.

Debra Brookes  42:19

When I heard that, when I heard it, why, yep. That's when you know you're in when they call you Aunty.

Debbie Reynolds  42:24

That's right. Very, very true.

Debra Brookes  42:27

I love it. I love that. Just listening to you engage with your guests just makes us feel so warm and welcoming. I felt nothing but warm feelings from you and I wanted to, again, thank you for allowing me to speak after two years of attempting to get this interview and this day to happen. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Debbie Reynolds  42:53

Well, we're honored, and I'm so happy you're on here because I think just being such a brilliant professional, someone who is really leading the charge in terms of emerging technology and finance, especially something that all of us care about and think about. So I think just having you on the show. It's a great, great treat for our audience.

Debra Brookes  43:15

I appreciate that. Thank you.

Debbie Reynolds  43:17

All right. Well, hopefully, we'll get a chance to connect and collaborate in the future.

Debra Brookes  43:22

Absolutely. I look forward to it.

Debbie Reynolds  43:24

All right, talk to you soon. Thank you so much.