The Data Diva E220 - Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg and Debbie Reynolds

Debbie Reynolds, “The Data Diva” talks to Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg, SAP's Chief Legal Counsel for Export Controls and Sanctions for North and South America. Michelle shares her inspiring and unique career journey, including roles in government contracting, aerospace and defense, higher education, law firms, and consulting, before transitioning to her current tech industry role. Her wealth of experience gives her a unique perspective on the intersection of export controls, privacy, and emerging technologies.

Debbie and Michelle explore the evolving nature of export controls, particularly in the digital age, where data flows and cross-border transfers have added new layers of complexity. Michelle explains how export controls, once focused largely on physical goods, now encompass digital data, renderings, and server-to-server flows. She highlights the challenges businesses face in complying with ever-changing geopolitical regulations, especially with the rise of AI and emerging technologies. The conversation also touches on the direct connection between export controls and privacy, such as the recent U.S. executive order prohibiting data brokers from transferring sensitive American data to countries of concern.
Michelle emphasizes the need for clear regulations, global collaboration, and practical safeguards to help companies comply while protecting data privacy. She discusses the parallels between export controls and privacy laws, including the importance of tracking data lineage, securing consent for sensitive information, and implementing proper access controls. As technology evolves rapidly, Michelle stresses the importance of creating robust systems to safeguard data while remaining adaptable to constant changes and shares her hope for Data Privacy in the future.

Additionally, Michelle introduces her new book, Kindly Michelle, which shares her journey, lessons learned, and insights for young professionals navigating their careers. She encourages listeners to embrace their authentic selves, develop a strong personal brand, and prioritize kindness and authenticity when building professional connections.

Transcript

[00:00] Debbie Reynolds: The personal views expressed by our podcast guests are their own and are not legal advice or official statements by their organizations.

[00:12] Hello, my name is Debbie Reynolds. They call me the Data Diva. This is the Data Diva Talks Privacy podcast, where we discuss data privacy issues with industry leaders around the world with information that businesses need to know.

[00:24] Now, I have a very special guest on the show all the way from Hawaii, Michelle Trong Perrin Steinberg. Welcome.

[00:34] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: Thanks, Debbie. Thanks for having me.

[00:36] Debbie Reynolds: Well, Michelle is the chief legal counsel in charge of export controls, sanctions for North America and South America at SAP.

[00:48] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: Yes. Thanks for that introduction.

[00:52] Debbie Reynolds: Also, I have to mention, you are a published author as well, so we.

[00:57] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: Can get into that. Yes, I am. Yeah. I would love to talk about the book. Thank you. Yep.

[01:01] Debbie Reynolds: You're a woman of many talents.

[01:03] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: So.

[01:04] Debbie Reynolds: So actually, this is a cool story. So a friend of mine who was on Always also on the podcast, Andowah Newton, she was the former head of litigation for Louis Vuitton.

[01:16] She was in Chicago. Her and I were gonna meet. She was on the board of. You have to tell me the name of the conference.

[01:23] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: It was the Women Women Influenced Power in the Law.

[01:26] Debbie Reynolds: Yes, it was amazing. So just the panels and all the different things that people talked about, I thought it was very different because typically, you know, I've. I've attended legal conferences, and a lot of times it's very narrow.

[01:41] So I felt like the conference was very broad in terms of what they were doing, and that's how it comes into how I met you. So your session that you were a panelist on was about branding, and I thought, oh, this is cool.

[01:55] This is different. I wouldn't typically see something like that at a legal conference, but, yeah, I thought it was fantastic. I got a chance to meet you afterwards, and I thought just your words of wisdom and everything just really resonated with me.

[02:08] But tell me a bit about your journey and kind of law and data and how you became the chief legal counsel at SAP.

[02:17] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: Sure, Debbie. Thank you. Well, first, I just want to say I am so happy that we did meet at the Whipple conference and that you have invited me to this podcast.

[02:26] I was just trying to think I get myself into with agreeing to be on the podcast because it's such a great podcast. I know you're very well respected in the data protection privacy realm.

[02:36] And like you said, Ando was on before, and she and I have been on the board together for Whipple. And so I just want to make sure that I can bring some value to your listeners.

[02:45] But yeah, so my journey you know, I kind of took a winding road. I'm not your traditional lawyer, I will say, you know, I one of those people who kind of started out differently.

[02:58] I think most people when they go to law school, the first job they have is at a law firm. That, that was not me. I just started working at companies.

[03:05] My father was in the military, so I kind of grew up learning about different defense contractors. And so when I started working, I was for a defense contractor. And so I was doing government contracting work.

[03:17] And that's kind of how I learned about expert controls and trade sanctions. I learned about it while I was doing government contracts working at Booz Allen. And I just kind of thought, okay, what, what expert controls?

[03:27] I never heard of it before, didn't hear about it in law school, so just wanted to learn a little bit more about it. And as I learned more about it, I was like, you know, this is really interesting, you know, like expert controls.

[03:38] I know you've had some other expert controls attorneys on your podcast, but you know, for those who aren't aware, it's, it's really those regulatory compliance, it's laws and regulations that are meant to protect US foreign policy interests, national, national security interests of the United States.

[03:55] And other governments have their own version of export controls as well. So they change depending on administration, you know, what's going on geopolitically in the world. And so I find it very fascinating.

[04:08] I've been in this field for about 20 years now. And the reason why is because it changes so much now with emerging technologies. I mean, it's changing, but so I started out working at government contracting places like Booz Allen, saic.

[04:22] Then I kind of transitioned over to aerospace and defense. I worked at Boeing in different roles in export controls and sanctions. First, more supporting a business unit level understanding programs, making sure they have the correct licenses in place to be able to export and import.

[04:39] And then when I went to Boeing, it was more of a compliance role, doing investigations and audits of our programs, making sure that we, you know, had a robust compliance program.

[04:51] And then I worked at a university, which was quite different, working at the University of Miami, monitoring their export control compliance and their, it was more about setting up a framework for compliance and explaining to the university community like what, what our expert controls are and how they apply in a university setting, which is different because they do a lot of fundamental research.

[05:12] And so looking at that, and then that was my first experience into sanctions and the different ways that sanctions are used. And I think a lot of people now are familiar with sanctions because of, you know, Russia's war on Ukraine the past two years.

[05:27] So you know, you hear about that in the news about how sanct are being used as a tool to influence, you know, people and governments and so. Yeah, so and then after that I kind of went to another aerospace and defense type of company, Raytheon.

[05:43] And then after Raytheon I then I went to traditional law firm. So it took me like many years and then I got to the law firm experience and then after that I went to Deloitte, which is a big four consulting company.

[05:55] So I've had roles that had me be a lawyer, a non lawyer, a consultant. And I think in all these different areas, you know, I learn and grow and evolved, you know, and added to my toolkit for expert controls and sanctions.

[06:08] And then currently, now I'm at SAP as their chief legal counsel for America as North and South America. And this is my first time working in tech and I love it.

[06:18] I've been here for almost five years and it's a pretty exciting place to be.

[06:24] Debbie Reynolds: Wow, that's an amazing journey.

[06:27] Yeah, you've seen a lot of different sides for. Well, I'll just tell you a little bit about my baptism, so to speak, in expert controls. So I was advising a company many, many moons ago.

[06:41] It's a famous company, satellite company. And yeah, they found out that there was some data that they wanted to do stuff with and like litigation.

[06:54] And we found out that they were.

[06:56] There was some government stuff having to do itar.

[07:02] And I was like, okay, everybody, you have to get out of the building.

[07:06] Everybody out, everybody out. Literally like this is a big like consulting company. Like everyone had to leave out, right? Cause I'm like, you can't be like, first of all, who is a US citizen?

[07:18] You can't be in rooms with the stuff like who's like papers, you know, documents, all that, you know. So that was kind of like a weird thing. And I think a lot of people, tons of people don't, don't know and understand anything about expert controls really.

[07:34] And I think when you talk about regulation and compliance, people don't really understand how fluid export controls can be and because like I've had situations where let's say we want to move data somewhere and something happened the day before, it's like, okay, you can't move it now, right?

[07:54] Because you know, there's a war or there's some, you know, big policy things. So as you say, it is very fluid. So it's not like, okay, we're going to go down to the courthouse, a judge is going to pass this law and it's going to be like that until someone else passed the law.

[08:08] It's like, okay, well this geopolitical thing happened. This memo came out from the White House.

[08:14] This war, just like you say, like the war in Ukraine. I think that got buck wild. People weren't expecting that. And, and a lot of people, because we're, we are in a global world in terms of data, people don't really understand how those things impact them.

[08:28] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: Right, that's right, that's right. Yeah. And you did kind of have like baptism by fire working with the ITAR because that's, that's where you work, get into the military use and that is even stricter control than, you know, the civilian dual use with the ear.

[08:43] So yeah, that's kind of, if you start out that way. And yeah, you're right. I mean there are controls that need to be put in place because, you know, data can be so many different things.

[08:53] I think people think of data as maybe it's like a physical shipment of something, but it's also drawings, you know, renderings, it's technical information manuals, any kind of know how design blueprints.

[09:04] And if it's ITAR controlled then you do have to worry about who has access to it. And if they're a US person. Right. If they're a US citizen, have a green card or have some type of political asylum and what are their countries of citizenship?

[09:17] They may be dual citizens, multi citizen. So you have to do that analysis and put those controls in place or else you have a violation which comes with, you know, serious consequences the company and to individuals.

[09:29] Debbie Reynolds: So I think of export controls as parallel in some way to privacy. Obviously it's more fluid and it changes a lot more. But to me it's just kind of a data flow.

[09:42] Right. So where maybe in the past people thought I would just like to say like export controls can be like equipment, it can be software renderings, different things like that.

[09:53] But then because on privacy is sort of around kind of the data flow things for the purpose of protecting someone's personal data. So tell me a little bit about like that connection.

[10:05] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: Yeah, sure. And it's good that you brought that up because at my current company at SAP, data protection and privacy and expert control are sister teams. We're actually one team. We have separate lawyers who handle both and operations colleagues, non lawyers, but it's all within the same team and it rolls up to the same leadership and I think it just kind of shows how they kind of go hand in hand.

[10:27] A lot of the expert control matters have some type of data protection or privacy element to them. If you look at, you know, just trying to understand what is, what data is expert controlled, you know, we have all this data out there.

[10:41] Not everything is going to be expert controlled data. Right. So we have to decide, you know, what is the expert control data, what type of access controls are you going to put in place, you, who's going to have access to it?

[10:52] How do you do that? Like at a global company. Right. And I've worked at a lot of different companies and they all have different strategies for doing that. And then it's also that compliance piece of training people and making sure that people understand if something is marked expert control or something is marked something else, what does that mean and how are they supposed to handle it?

[11:11] And if there is a potential issue, who do they go to in case there is an issue or something got released to somebody inadvertently, how do we report that? But then also with export controls, you know, because things change so much.

[11:25] There are these restricted party lists and different governments and different entities have their version of these lists and they could be individuals and they could be companies and that's constantly changing.

[11:36] Sometimes people get added to the list, sometimes people fall off the list. Right. And you have to screen for them. And there are tools out there in the marketplace that can be used to screen because you want to automate this, because it's a lot of information.

[11:49] But the data protection piece comes into play because when you're talking about individuals and you're trying to screen, you know, what if you have like a John Smith, right? That's a very common name, you know, so which John Smith are we talking about?

[12:01] We may need another piece of information. We may need their middle name, we may need their birth date. Now we're talking about, you know, the privacy information. We're talking about somebody's personal identifying information, their pii.

[12:13] So oftentimes, you know, I am working with our data protection and privacy colleagues to just make sure that, you know, there is a legal reason I need to ask for this information.

[12:23] You know, there's a legitimate reason to know and then obtain that person's consent. You know, can, can you give us this information? And this is why we need it, get their consent, and then we have to think about how are we going to store that information and how long we're going to store it.

[12:36] So all of those things come into play with data protection and privacy and cross and expert controls. And so there's a lot of collaboration there.

[12:44] Debbie Reynolds: Well, there's something that happened in the news that I love your thoughts about. And to me, this was like the most direct connection I felt, to between export controls and privacy.

[12:55] And that was the executive order that came out around data brokers. And they want to prevent data brokers from sending personal or sensitive data of Americans to countries of concern.

[13:10] Right. So countries of concern are the lists on the State Department website. And as you say, some countries go on and off.

[13:18] Certain ones are probably always on there. Maybe like Burma or something like that. But. But, you know, because it's so fluid and this is so different than what people thought about.

[13:28] I just thought, to me, that was like really extraordinary that that was like such a direct connection. And so I think that export controls and privacy will have to be closer together because of things like that.

[13:41] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: Yeah, I agree with you. And we see that all the time too with. Because these, these restricted party lists, right, it's hitting on potential matches. So it might be, It'll. The algorithm is such that it'll just give you potential hits and then you have to do something with that information.

[13:57] So you need to collect additional information in order to validate, you know, this is the same person or it's not the same person. You need to have that good communication and relationship with the other legal team to be able to resolve those types of issues.

[14:15] Debbie Reynolds: I think it's just a fascinating time to be in data and be in export controls, especially because, I don't know, I think a lot of times when people are thinking about export controls, maybe before we went into the digital age, a lot of the stuff is like physical stuff about moving physical things.

[14:33] So now we're also adding in data, and not just data on media, but data that's flowing like from server to server.

[14:41] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: Yeah, it's more, it's. There's just more to worry about now, I feel like, because, you know, you could. The export could be the email, right? The export could be digital download, the export could leave information in the cloud, you know, and that's something that people need to understand, getting away from these traditional ways of exporting, which is like the physical shipment, but now understanding with all of these other ways that technology is being used, that that's also considered export.

[15:07] And that's why, you know, it's interesting because the regulator is writing the rules as we speak. It's like, you know, what do they say? That taking off the airplane, building the Runway while the airplane is like going off, you know, like all of this merging tech is happening and the regulators there trying to capture the rules with this.

[15:23] Because that's, that's the, I think is the tricky part for companies. It's just understanding what, what are the safeguards, what are we supposed to be doing to comply with the different laws and regulations that are continuously changing?

[15:37] It's changing because of the technology changing. Right. So it's just that kind of goes hand in hand.

[15:43] Yeah.

[15:44] Debbie Reynolds: One other thing I think is a fascinating parallel between kind of privacy export controls, and I'll throw in AI in here too, is when you're working export controls, you have to track the data or information always.

[16:00] Right. All the way from cradle to gray. Right, right. And so we're seeing a parallel there in AI where the lineage of where things, not only the provenance of it, like, do you have a right to have it, but then what happens to that data, like all the way through the data lifecycle?

[16:17] What are your thoughts?

[16:19] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: Yeah, I mean, that's, that's a good example because it's like, it's almost like this whole chain of custody. Right. Like, where did it, where did it start and where is it traveling through?

[16:27] It's almost like a server too. Like when you have data on a server, where is it being transmitted, where is it going through? So you kind of have to know, you know, where it is at all times.

[16:36] So. Yeah, I agree. I think that is also complicates things.

[16:40] Debbie Reynolds: Right.

[16:40] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: This is becoming like more and more complex and I think that's where it's good to have the regulations be very clear about what are the responsibilities for the exporter, what's the lay of the land, what's the framework?

[16:57] And that's what I think a lot of companies are looking for is this guidance. Because otherwise we're out here trying to comply with the laws and documents and give our justifications for things.

[17:10] But if we don't have the guidance, then I think that complicates things. Right.

[17:15] Debbie Reynolds: So, yeah, I think that's true. So what's happening in the world right now that concerns you as it relates to data or privacy?

[17:24] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: So, you know, I was thinking about this as I was preparing, you know, to be on your show, and I just feel like a lot of these regulations are very complex and very difficult to understand.

[17:35] And then also for the consumer too, like when I think about data protection, you know, I always hear, and I get in the mail, I'm sure you do. And the listeners do too, like letters about data breaches.

[17:46] Right. From different banks and healthcare systems. And it Just seems to happen a lot. And so I just wonder, you know, what can be done to strengthen that so that we don't have these data breaches.

[17:59] And then when it does happen, is it clear, like, what the steps are for people to resolve things? Because I've known, you know, colleagues and friends and family members who've, you know, been victims of identity theft and it just takes a long time to unwind all of that.

[18:14] And I just wish there was more streamlined process. So I think it's a couple things. I think it's, you know, the regulations need to be very clear on, like what are the requirements for these companies, entities to protect people's data and then make it very clear what the regulations are and then make it very clear for individuals to know, like, what are their rights and what can they do?

[18:38] Debbie Reynolds: I agree. I think it is incredibly complicated. So people who even work in this space every day, they find it complicated. So I can imagine, only imagine what a typical consumer would think when they get these notices in the mail and what they need to do.

[18:55] For sure, I think. I don't know. My thought about that is that I feel like we just are exchanging too much data, right. I feel like not everybody needs to have or need to be exchanging so much data, right.

[19:10] So like I, I live in Illinois and certain things that you buy at a store in Illinois, they have a system where before you used to have to show your id, like if you're buying certain things, whatever store, but now they have a scanner where it's like scanning the barcode on the back of your id.

[19:28] And I always wonder, it's like, why do you need this? Like, where is this information going? Like, why would you need to scan this? And then, you know, what's the retention of that?

[19:37] And so it's like if you, if you wanted to know if I was like of age to buy this thing, I obviously am, right. If the data's going into a system, it concerns me like, okay, so what if that's breached or where is that going?

[19:50] To me it seems like we're just over collecting data for certain things.

[19:55] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: Right? I agree with you. I think the over collection and then also, you know, what, ha. Where is all of this stored and for how long? I mean there are these, you know, some, some types of information, statutory requ.

[20:06] Requirements to keep them, record keeping. But, you know, I don't know if all companies are really following that. What if they keep it longer than they're supposed to? And I feel like that opens up additional risk for keeping data for such a long period of time, but then it's almost like other people are rights too.

[20:23] Like, can we. Can we request that, you know, we don't want the debt, you know, to keep our data anymore. You know, Like, I think that also needs to be a little bit better explained.

[20:33] And recently I was in Germany, and I just remember when I was there how different interactions that I would have, there just seemed to be more.

[20:44] More information about your rights when it comes to data protection and privacy. Like, I just remember being at the Frankfurt airport trying to get on the WI fi, and there were all these different notices about, you know, my information and it's being sent here and there.

[20:58] And I just don't recall seeing those types of things in the US And I know that Europe is, you know, better, well, further along when it comes to data protection and privacy.

[21:09] But it's just interesting how, like, all these different, you know, geographical areas and they're all in different stages, you know, the different stages of how they view data protection and privacy.

[21:21] Debbie Reynolds: I think that's true, right, Because I, When I travel to Europe, I have the same experience as well. And it is very. It's a bit jarring because you're like, hey, this is so different than what I'm accustomed to, right?

[21:32] Totally, totally different. I want to segue a bit into your book, so.

[21:37] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: Yes, thank you.

[21:38] Debbie Reynolds: It's fortuitous, just by happenstance, that your book has come out and we're talking today, so.

[21:44] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: Yes, yes. And the book is called Kindly Michelle. And that's kind of how I sign off on emails. My signature sign off is just kindly Common Michelle. And so that's why I wanted to title the book that, because it's really like my letter to people about my journey, my story.

[22:01] I feel like we all have a story to tell, and Kindly Michelle is mine. A lot of it is about my background, how I was raised, how I was raised differently.

[22:09] My mom's from Vietnam, my father is from Virginia. Country boy, and he was in the military. And I'm an only child. And so it's kind of like my experiences growing up living all over.

[22:21] Like, I lived overseas, I lived all throughout the US and just different key things that happened in my life that kind of shaped me into who I am. I initially wrote it with students in mind, like young people trying to be there to inspire them on their journeys and just kind of sharing some lessons I learned along the way.

[22:40] My journey into the law and how I found expert controls and sanctions. Because I also want to give more exposure to this area of the law, like I didn't find it till later on and you know, I just think it's such a fascinating area that I want more people to know about it.

[22:55] So I talk about that, but also I talk about just different values and how you really need to know yourself, to know, you know, what it is that you want in life.

[23:03] Because there's so many choices out there now for young people to decide, you know, what they want to be. And I think this book kind of shares, you know, some questions to ask yourself, put in that time for that self discovery so you know that you know what it is that you're looking for.

[23:18] And I hope that, you know the book can inspire people. I just published it in early November and it's available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other booksellers.

[23:27] Debbie Reynolds: So.

[23:27] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: So hopefully it can help people.

[23:30] Debbie Reynolds: Yeah, that's great. I can't wait to pick up a copy. Absolutely. The panel that you were on at this conference where we met was about branding.

[23:39] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: Yeah.

[23:39] Debbie Reynolds: And I feel like some people feel like branding, like they, they're kind of repelled by it. Right. Because they think it's like too much production or too much fanfare for them.

[23:50] But I thought you made a really good, good point. You made a lot of very good points about branding and why it's important. So maybe tell a little bit about that.

[23:59] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: Sure, yeah. I mean, I think branding is really like how you want to be known out in the world. Like what do you want to be known for? So I think that's where some of the self discovery comes into play of just knowing yourself, knowing what your skills are, what you want to be known for.

[24:14] And I feel like whether you intentionally craft your brand or not, people are going to talk about you. So you, you know, it's in your best interest to, to kind of control that narrative so that you can control what people are saying about you.

[24:28] So think about what it is that you want to be known for and then just do it in an authentic way. You don't need to be anybody else. There's a lot of people out there who say you need to do this, you need to do that, but you know, you need to be you there.

[24:42] There's plenty of other people out there being them. You know, you be, you find what's authentic to you and share. You know, I also think it's important that we don't overcomplicate this.

[24:53] Like what is branding, what is networking? It doesn't need to be over complicated. It is really just being open Sharing stories, being open to talk with other people, communicate what your goals are, see how you can help other people.

[25:06] I mean it's really being kind, being open, paying it forward. I mean, that's how I have been trying to live my life. That's how I was raised and I try to help people and people help me along the way.

[25:18] So I feel like, like it's really just putting yourself in those places to be a help to somebody else and try to lift as you climb. So that's kind of what I shared on the panel.

[25:29] And I know a lot of people have more tools and very specific ways of like networking and things like that. And I think you do need to be intentional, but I think it has to be authentic to you and it doesn't have to be very complicated.

[25:42] And if you say open, then I think you're going to be well on your way.

[25:47] Debbie Reynolds: I think that's true. I know when I like if I go to an event, my goal is to at least meet one person.

[25:55] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: Yeah, right.

[25:56] Debbie Reynolds: At least. So I don't come with like say, oh, I gotta meet every single person. Maybe I do meet every single person. But I think even if you go anywhere you go, if you just meet one person and connect with that one person, you know, that just really helps you develop, you know, your sense of self.

[26:14] It helps you get to know the other person. You never know what that turns out to be. But I always tell people about networking. Networking is really about what you give, not what you get.

[26:24] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: Right? Yeah. And I agree and I think it's about the quality over quantity. It's like you can go somewhere and talk to all kinds of people. Right. But if you haven't met somebody that you, you will follow up with, then it's like it.

[26:38] That's why it takes being open, having the conversation, but then it's also the follow up.

[26:43] Debbie Reynolds: Right.

[26:43] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: You know, because you know, you don't want to meet all these people and then lose touch. So it's about being intentional about how do you follow up with them in an authentic, genuine way to you, Right.

[26:52] Debbie Reynolds: Well, you definitely can't get away without talking about AI know what your thoughts on this.

[26:58] So in my view, I feel like this is, this era is very special and very different. And when I think about export controls, again, going back to, let's say before the digital age, before we put stuff in digital systems, a lot of export control stuff was about physical stuff, right.

[27:20] So once we got into digital systems, it was, it's physical and digital stuff. And then now I Feel like now we have AI, so now we're going to do this other leap, right?

[27:30] So it's going to really change what's happening, change the face of how we deal with export controls. Because I think AI makes it harder to track things, especially the way it's deployed.

[27:41] But I want your thoughts.

[27:43] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: Yeah, I mean, I think AI, it's an area that's just changing, right? Like that's, that's the emerging tech and that's where the regulator is trying to figure out how do we control AI.

[27:55] And I think just from my own perspective, thinking back and how, how I was when I was younger, I have never been somebody who adopted technology very quickly. Like, I feel like I've always been the person that's kind of like sat back and just kind of observed, you know, these different things happening.

[28:13] But since working at SAP for the past almost five years, I feel like now I've become more of a adopter of technology. And I don't know if it's because, you know, legal training and I feel like a lot of lawyers are kind of slower to adapt to these kinds of technolog.

[28:29] So I still have colleagues who have never used AI, But I will say is that it's not going away, right. I feel like it is here to stay. It's going to get more and more complex.

[28:40] It needs more, I don't want to say it like work or there needs to be more done with it for people to feel like they can trust it. And I think more people need to understand, like, what it is and what happens to the data.

[28:54] And a lot of other things need to be worked out as related to, like, bias and discrimination and accessibility and a lot of other things. Right. And so I just don't think we're there yet with it.

[29:05] Right. With the controls. But I'm hopeful that we'll get there. It's just we need people to stay engaged with it and I feel like we need more people to adopt, like a growth mindset around it, right.

[29:16] That it's not going anywhere and we kind of need to get our arms around it. And for the regulators, I mean, they are going to have to figure out, you know, how is this going to be controlled and explain it in a way that companies can understand, you know, what it is that we need to do to comply, like, how do we comply, what, what is expected of us.

[29:37] But then there also needs to be, like, more ethics around it and like, more safeguards around it so that people understand, like, what to do and what not to do and And I think we just haven't gotten there yet.

[29:50] You know, I'm just not convinced that, you know, that we've gotten there. And I'm not convinced that. Oh, you know, I think more people will use it once they see more of this structure around it.

[30:02] Debbie Reynolds: Right, Yeah, I think I agree with you. I think for almost any technology, in order for it to be widely adopted, people have to feel like it helps them in some way.

[30:12] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: Right.

[30:12] Debbie Reynolds: So if people can't see the immediate benefit of it to them, it's hard to actually do that adoption. So I think I'm hoping to see a lot more practical uses of AI where people can say, okay, okay, this actually helped me.

[30:28] This helped me in my job or this helped me at home. Right. And that's really where that adoption comes. Because I think of something like the smartphone.

[30:37] I remember. I don't. Well, I'm old enough to remember before there were cell phones or what cell phones used to look like before they were.

[30:43] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: Me too, Debbie.

[30:46] Debbie Reynolds: Right, right. And so when smartphones came around, you know, it could do all these multiple things. And what they did, which I thought was brilliant, is that they tried to. To have the phone do things that people practically needed.

[31:01] Like stuff you just wouldn't even imagine. Like, I remember this was like between the, like. Remember blackberries were like the rage and then the smartphone came out. Right. I remember I was.

[31:11] And I was like a die hard BlackBerry person before like the iPhone came out. And like it was so funny cause I was with someone who had an iPhone. And at that time I was trying to look up like a movie or something and I swear it took me like 15 minutes just to navigate through and find like the movie.

[31:28] And they like pushed like three buttons and they were able to get the same information. So I think that those types of things have to be worked out with AI before we see such a major adoption.

[31:41] But then also I think one of the big things that is changing and I want your thoughts on this as it relates to AI is like, especially there are so many software programs.

[31:53] Obviously there are software programs that use AI before, but now there's more of a rush to push more AI into tools. And so I think what we're seeing is because of the rapid advancement there, because of all the money and interest there, the tools that we use every day are going to be changing more often.

[32:10] And I think that that's going to make it a challenge for companies to really keep up or have people upskill and keep up with the changes that are happening in the Software.

[32:21] Because if you think about a typical software program that you. It may not have, like, maybe to have a minor update once a year and maybe have a major update or overhaul every three years.

[32:32] And so now what we're seeing with AI systems are some of these things are changing in months and weeks as opposed to years. What are your thoughts?

[32:41] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: Yeah, and I think that's where the growth mindset piece comes in. It's just understanding that there. This is. This as we get to a more robust AI, there's a journey. This is a journey, right.

[32:52] Like there's going to be changes and we kind of have to be open to the changes. And I think, like, as users of this. Right. Being open to it. So adopting that mindset that, like, okay, these are the steps that we need to take for us to get there.

[33:07] But I agree with what you said earlier, too, about people needing to see how they can use it in their everyday lives. When it comes to expert controls, I'm not really sure it's been very clear, like, how AI can help.

[33:19] You know, like, I see it very clearly when it comes to certain areas of the law, like contracting and negotiations. And when you are somebody who's working with terms and conditions all the time, you know, or negotiating on behalf of your company, I can see how AI can help.

[33:36] Because that is, I think that use case has been explained. Like, you can kind of quickly see, like, it being more efficient for you.

[33:43] Debbie Reynolds: Right.

[33:44] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: It's like more efficient for you to use the AI. But then when it comes to expert controls, I mean, I'm not sure we've seen that clear, you know, efficiency yet. I mean, maybe that's coming.

[33:53] But then I think that's why it's important to kind of reinforce that with AI. It doesn't mean that the robots and everybody's taking things over and that there's no human that needs to be involved because there will always be humans who will need to be involved.

[34:09] And I think one of my leaders at SAP said it best when they said it's not a duel, but a duet. Like, we need both.

[34:15] Debbie Reynolds: Right?

[34:15] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: Right.

[34:15] Debbie Reynolds: So I love that. I want to use that. It's not a duel, it's a duet. I think that's a perfect way to put it.

[34:22] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: Yeah.

[34:24] Debbie Reynolds: Well, Michelle, we're the world according to you, and we did everything you said. What will be your wish for privacy or technology anywhere in the world? Even export controls, whether that be regulation, human behavior or technology.

[34:39] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: I was bring it back to the data protection. I would love to see more companies. Is doing more when it comes to our personal data, because this is how I see it affecting everyday people, right?

[34:51] It's like we all have information that's out there, right? And we are trusting banks, like healthcare systems, other entities, that the information that we give them is going to be safe.

[35:03] But we've seen time and time again through all these data breaches that that's not the case. And a lot of times it's the repeat offenders. It's the same people over and over again who are having the same data breaches.

[35:13] So I would love to. To fall for that. Like, that's a problem. I feel like that should be resolved, especially as we are turning to more like technology, more emerging tech like AI, machine learning, and even more that's going to be coming, right?

[35:29] We can't even safeguard the other stuff. Like, how is all this other additional information and data going to be safe? So that's kind of my concern. And I also feel like there needs to be more plain language when it comes to the regulations, and there needs to be more education and awareness to help people who have been victims of data breaches.

[35:52] Like, what. What do people do when that happens to them? So I would love to solve for that, Debbie.

[36:01] Debbie Reynolds: That's a great wish. I support that. I support that very much so. Oh, my goodness.

[36:07] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: Well, thank you so much for being on the show.

[36:10] Debbie Reynolds: And people definitely check out Michelle on LinkedIn and definitely her book.

[36:15] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: Thank you, Debbie. Thank you so much. It's been such a joy to be on here. I really can just want to say congratulations to you on your podcast. It's. It's such a great podcast, and I know that it's rated very well, and you have so many interesting people on here, and I've been listening and I am a fan of the podcast and I'm just thrilled that I was able to be a guest.

[36:37] So thank you so much, Debbie.

[36:39] Debbie Reynolds: Thank you. Thank you. Well. Well, I couldn't do it without you and other people like you who are willing to come here and share your thoughts and the things that you're doing, which is tremendous.

[36:49] So I'm definitely a fan of yours as well.

[36:52] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: Thank you, Debbie. Thank you.

[36:54] Debbie Reynolds: Well, we'll talk soon.

[36:56] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: Yes, we will.

[36:57] Debbie Reynolds: All right. Okay.

[36:58] Michelle Trong Perrin-Steinberg: Take care. Okay, you too. Bye.