[00:00] Debbie Reynolds: The personal views expressed by our podcast guests are their own and are not legal advice or official statements by their organizations.
[00:14] Hello, my name is Debbie Reynolds. They call me the Data Diva. This is the Data Diva Talks Privacy podcast where we discuss data privacy issues with industry leaders around the world.
[00:25] We with information that businesses need to know. Now,
[00:28] I have a very special guest on the show, Ilia Dubovtsev.
[00:34] He is the founder of Dub Consulting.
[00:40] Welcome.
[00:42] Ilia Dubovtsev: Hello. It's a great,
[00:44] great pleasure for me to be a guest of your podcast. And my name is Dubovtsev. Yeah, that's absolutely correct. And as for my name of my project is Dub Dub.
[00:54] Yeah, it's a first three letter of my true name.
[00:58] And also it reflects some sides of my personality because I really adhere to trust, to confidence,
[01:08] and to reliability in my relationship with my clients.
[01:14] Yeah, I'm really specialized in employee privacy and in M and D privacy.
[01:20] And another part of my expertise is international data transfers.
[01:25] So I can tell anything to you about these topics.
[01:30] Debbie Reynolds: Yeah. Well, I also want to mention that you're coming to us from Moscow, Russia.
[01:36] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[01:37] Debbie Reynolds: And yeah. So you're a frequent poster on LinkedIn. I've seen your post for many years.
[01:44] You posted a series of articles about employee privacy, which I thought was really fascinating because it's an area that people don't talk about enough,
[01:53] especially I think, especially in the US where employees really don't have very much privacy.
[02:01] It's very different in other countries. But just give me, first of all, give me your background. Tell me how you got into this profession. Privacy and. Yeah. How did you get into Dub,
[02:14] your organization?
[02:16] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah. Thank you for your questions.
[02:18] And so as to explain my motivation to handle employee privacy, namely employee and workplace issues.
[02:26] I'd like to tell about my story.
[02:30] My career path started as a corporate counsel at banking organizations, large banking organizations like AlphaBank,
[02:38] the largest private bank in Russia.
[02:40] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[02:40] Ilia Dubovtsev: And BCS is the largest financial broker in Russia. And I handled general corporate issues as a lawyer, qualified lawyer under Russian law.
[02:49] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[02:50] Ilia Dubovtsev: And while I started to be interested in things like privacy,
[02:57] where data became a really, really popular topic in Russia.
[03:02] It was in late 2010s and or the beginning the bulk of COVID Yeah.
[03:11] So data became alarming issue for Russian organizations.
[03:15] And my reflection was that I must handle it because I think that data is the thing that all over about us,
[03:26] about each of our society in global dimension.
[03:36] So I contend that privacy is a maximum expression of individual liberty. That's why I tend that we must stand for it because privacy is a thing that everyone should care of.
[03:51] And as for employee privacy, as you noticed correctly,
[03:55] employees, the field that very regulated in Russia we have where we really really tough labor legislation.
[04:04] It's because of our history.
[04:06] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[04:07] Ilia Dubovtsev: As you know, it's because of the social economic situation in Russia and it's because of many other conditions and many other reasons Russian society. Society survived of many years. So. And this circumstance have impacted on privacy regulations of Russia.
[04:28] So when I started to practice Russian data protection law, I figured that workplace privacy is a thing I should to handle.
[04:38] Yeah, I should handle because it would be really, really,
[04:42] really, really beneficial and really fruitful. I would say beneficial for me and fruitful for me. The field where I should specialize in.
[04:51] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[04:52] Ilia Dubovtsev: As a privacy expert,
[04:55] I defend interest of my clients and of my organizations where I work for their best interest.
[05:02] And I think that ideal privacy program should consist of three pillars. First pillar is accountability.
[05:10] Second pillar is balance of interest.
[05:14] And third pillar is fairness.
[05:17] Fairness or in other words,
[05:20] good phase of data use.
[05:25] These three pillars,
[05:26] key elements of privacy program as per my vision.
[05:33] Debbie Reynolds: Those are good, those are good pillars.
[05:35] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And this works for any jurisdiction. Not only Russia, not only Europe.
[05:42] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[05:42] Ilia Dubovtsev: Because Russian legislation is based on European standards. Because Russia is still a part of Convention 108, as you know.
[05:51] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[05:51] Ilia Dubovtsev: Council of Europe convention about European standards of privacy.
[05:56] It's still very, very similar to European Union GDPR and also may apply in the United States reality, as I would like to believe about it.
[06:07] Because yes, I know that United States don't have comprehensive federal law on privacy and especially about employee privacy.
[06:16] But you have various regulations about non discrimination at workplace as a guidance by the regulators, lots of regulators you have and any other thing. So I think that the framework I propose would ideally fit any legislation, any applicable law, United States law, concrete States law or European Union law,
[06:37] or Russian law, or any other law.
[06:40] Because all jurisdictions tend to protect first of all accountability of data controllers, first of all employer as data controllers and balance of interest. The thing that create confidence in the relationship between employer and employee.
[06:57] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[06:57] Ilia Dubovtsev: And the third thing is fairness. Fairness is non discrimination.
[07:03] It's equal access to privacy rights, rights to access to deletion many hours. Yeah,
[07:11] we all know about it. And these three parts what constitute and work shoulder to shoulder to maintain a privately friendly privacy friendly workspace.
[07:27] Debbie Reynolds: Yeah,
[07:28] I like your pillars because I agree that regardless of jurisdiction,
[07:34] accountability for data, regardless of regulation, that's really what the aim and the goal is.
[07:40] So different jurisdictions may differ on how they do that or how accountability is. And Then balance, I guess it will be different based on jurisdiction. You know, especially like for example in the US with employees,
[07:54] except with the exception of California,
[07:57] if you're an employee, you don't have a whole lot, you don't have a ton of rights as it relates to privacy, but you may have other rights like you say about non discrimination or other types of regulations around kind of employee data.
[08:10] And then at fairness, I guess, guess that is, that's also a scale as well, depending on the culture, I guess of the jurisdiction and what they feel is fair or history.
[08:23] Because just like you said, you know, in Russia a lot of the employee laws are pretty strict and that's based on history. And so we're seeing that play out in different jurisdictions.
[08:35] But I think this is this. I think employee data is probably one of the most complex areas of privacy.
[08:45] Probably,
[08:46] probably to me the most complex area of privacy is children's data.
[08:52] And then after that,
[08:53] after that I think it's like employee data about particular people. But I want your thoughts.
[08:59] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah, employee data is a thing that relevant to almost all of us. Yeah. Because almost all of us,
[09:06] at least one once per life was an employee or contractor maybe.
[09:13] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[09:13] Ilia Dubovtsev: So and we also, we own children. Yeah, absolutely. But children is not a permanent state of individual. Yeah, but employee is maybe a permanent from the defined age.
[09:30] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[09:32] Ilia Dubovtsev: As for employee data,
[09:33] I think that it's not the most complex area in the realm of privacy because I think that the most complex is maybe biometrics. Biometrics and automated decision making.
[09:51] But as for workplace privacy,
[09:55] it's really, really relevant to everyone.
[10:00] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[10:01] Ilia Dubovtsev: So as for employee privacy, I regularly consult various companies from Russia, from Europe, from mena, Middle east and North Africa.
[10:14] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[10:15] Ilia Dubovtsev: And even I had several requests from American companies operating in Russia,
[10:23] especially in the retail sphere,
[10:24] in retail field.
[10:26] So I think that employee privacy will be impacted by a new era.
[10:34] We now face a new era of AI.
[10:38] AI will bring new opportunities.
[10:40] And I personally am optimist about this thing because I think that in history people's human life and human life, whale and labor, whale will grow when technology advances. And I think that in the epoch where AI may be our friend, maybe our pet,
[11:05] maybe our co worker and even maybe our spouse is not someone may claim about it.
[11:15] So I think that it only leads to higher price of human life because true human feelings, true human thinking and true human decision making will be gold in the new world.
[11:32] And I think that AI brings new opportunities for business development. It really democratizes democratizing business development for various societies.
[11:42] And I think that under AI Epoch,
[11:46] workplace privacy will be transformated into something like area where employee as a true equal partner of employer.
[11:57] I think that we will have.
[12:00] We all become businessmen to an extent.
[12:05] Like when Internet, YouTube and social media became popular, we all became. Many of us almost all became blogger.
[12:15] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[12:16] Ilia Dubovtsev: We all have blogs,
[12:18] social media pages and many, many other public things. So it's the same story as AI will give us new opportunities to build our new businesses. We will be more independent and it will impact on regulation of labor.
[12:33] Regulation of data related to HR and human resources impact on it will impact on the relationship between employer and employee.
[12:44] It will be like equal partners.
[12:46] I think we will not have the time where employee was like a slave of capitalists. Yeah, right.
[12:56] Who exploit the edit wheel.
[13:00] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[13:01] Ilia Dubovtsev: Of the labor for their profits.
[13:04] Now we have let's say employee as a capitalist and employer as the capitalist relationship between two capitalists.
[13:11] So it certainly brings new opportunities for all sides of these relationships.
[13:21] And it's my opinion that's a good opinion.
[13:26] Debbie Reynolds: I hadn't heard of it that way, but I think it's true because you know,
[13:32] I think we as a society are still going through growing pains around the employee employer relationship.
[13:41] A lot of people still view it as the industrial age where you have a foreman or a supervisor and the person brought their body or their mind to work, but they weren't told what to do by the employer.
[13:55] It was like a foreman overlooking like a floor where the minions did certain parts of a process.
[14:02] But now you have people who are especially data people where you have to work more horizontally across the organization. And it's not like you just have one little piece of a puzzle and no one knows the view of it except this higher level person.
[14:16] So I agree with that. I think that transformation in how much more technology is involved in people's job and helping them do their work, it's just going to create more definitely opportunities.
[14:34] But I think it creates more data risk for individuals and for organizations.
[14:39] Ilia Dubovtsev: But I want your thoughts as an employee. As the employee only a simple human. Yeah. The regular human.
[14:48] And in normal condition or without any advanced technologies like AI or machine learning or any other employee is really subject to various vulnerabilities created by the employment environment.
[15:05] Because employee may be first to give consent for unfair purchasing activities. For example, for monitoring of his activities outside the office.
[15:19] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[15:20] Ilia Dubovtsev: Many employers do these wrong things.
[15:24] Yeah. And when employee will obtain new opportunities with the AI with automatic apps that automates processes,
[15:37] business processes,
[15:38] it will have more powers to control their own life. And control the relationships with employer on the one side. But on the other side,
[15:49] AI is a black box.
[15:51] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[15:52] Ilia Dubovtsev: And the data collapser. Yeah, I created such terminal data collapser. The collapser, if you know astronomy. The object that collects and absorbs almost everything without any dips.
[16:09] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[16:09] Ilia Dubovtsev: And so data collectors is a large data collectors that absorbs box of data, various data with no purpose, with no control.
[16:22] It is the main threat that AI brings to our new world.
[16:30] We have two things.
[16:32] From the one side,
[16:33] AI empowers people,
[16:36] empowers employees. From the other side,
[16:42] it may make people slaves of new era because it collects bulk of data about your life while providing you new powers and new opportunities.
[16:56] So it's the main threat that may be mitigated by measures and a fair governance and fair policy,
[17:05] both internally in the organization and from the side of user, from the side of employee.
[17:12] And my framework,
[17:14] as I proposed,
[17:16] will facilitate the balancing these interests and balancing this in particular these things.
[17:26] I think that truly well organized privacy policies. I mean. Yeah.
[17:37] Will help organizations and help departments of various employees and line managers to balance their requests and their processes where AI is involved and where large data collectors is involved.
[17:56] Three principles.
[17:57] First principle, the policy should be very clear about how data. How data is collected,
[18:04] processed and sharp. Possibly.
[18:06] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[18:07] Ilia Dubovtsev: And second thing, the second principle of this policy is a scope clearly and distinctly put borders for what this policy. Yeah,
[18:20] for recruitment and the one policy for employment, for normal employment, cooperation, internal corporate communications,
[18:30] many other things.
[18:32] Internal communications and many other things.
[18:34] And for post employment,
[18:38] other things.
[18:39] And the third principle is measures,
[18:42] matters or remedies how employee can truly organizationally or technically challenge outputs of the data use.
[18:53] So this policy with these three principles will help to protect the rights and the interest of employee and employer as well.
[19:07] It's my vision.
[19:09] Debbie Reynolds: That's a good vision. What's happening in the world today that's concerning you as it relates to privacy or data.
[19:19] Ilia Dubovtsev: I think that we should work on more liberty for data subjects.
[19:25] More liberty could be brought only with fair regulation of data from the one side.
[19:36] Because I think that lots of regulations is not a good thing. Because lots of regulations will bring uncertainty and will burden both business and both individuals. And it make people less free in this area.
[19:53] So but a fair regulation that based on principles I said in the above. Yeah, Principles of accountability of large data collectors and data collectors, of any data collectors. But first of all, large data collectors on the balance of interest.
[20:07] And third, on the fairness,
[20:10] it is good faith in data usage. As Daniel Solov clearly told about the Duty of loyalty, duty of care.
[20:19] And it is a topic widely discussed in the American Scholarships.
[20:23] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[20:24] Ilia Dubovtsev: These three things constitute a fair regulation of data. The first thing is fair regulation. And the second thing are the literacy. Literacy technical and both technical literacy about AI, about new technologies,
[20:41] and literacy about the rights.
[20:44] I view my mission is that I educate people's own business about this.
[20:50] I work on literacy of masses through my newsletters and I hope that it will make people more protected from dangers than you. IPA greens.
[21:06] Debbie Reynolds: I do like that. When you say more liberty, more fairness. That's definitely needed,
[21:12] I think, in the US because there's so much business focus.
[21:16] A lot of times, unfortunately,
[21:19] some people think, well,
[21:20] just because it's not written in law means I could do whatever.
[21:25] Companies are now coming to the realization that that's not a good way to do business because that really erodes the trust that people have in companies and it really limits the quality of data that they can get from people if they feel like they aren't being treated fairly, regardless of regulation.
[21:45] But what do you think?
[21:47] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah, America has a different path from Europe and from the other world that tend to have a comprehensive law about privacy.
[21:59] But sectoral regulations have their advantages because they are usually more flexible and more responsive. Maybe from.
[22:12] From some people use.
[22:14] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[22:15] Ilia Dubovtsev: But I personally think that the United States should have a comprehensive law.
[22:21] As Europe do. Yeah, as Europe does. And I think that maybe in the future we will have a news about that. The U.S. congress passed the Comprehensive act on Data Protection.
[22:38] It would be a really good step because it will bring new,
[22:43] more certainty about dealing with international data transfers especially.
[22:49] Debbie Reynolds: Yeah. Well, I'm glad you mentioned international data transfers. So that's something I do a lot. But I want your perspective on international data transfers. So a lot of times I see there are surveys that come out every year where they survey a lot of data protection and data privacy people.
[23:08] And year after year, one of the top or most rated,
[23:13] one of the most complex areas of privacy for people who work in this area is the international data transfers. But I want your thoughts on this, on that area of work and how you see it.
[23:29] Ilia Dubovtsev: That's a good question.
[23:32] I think that privacy specialists and privacy experts from all the continents should work on one thing. We should make our countries and our continents closer.
[23:42] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[23:43] Ilia Dubovtsev: And this is because privacy is a child of the Internet age.
[23:47] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[23:48] Ilia Dubovtsev: And the popular topic. Because we also know that privacy was far beyond the Internet age. Yeah. And it started when George Brandeis firstly said about privacy.
[24:01] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[24:04] Ilia Dubovtsev: But the initial meaning of privacy, as per Mine is making nations closer.
[24:11] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[24:11] Ilia Dubovtsev: And it's maintaining free flows between the countries, between the jurisdictions. And I think that we all should work on it. We should make our regulation harmonized.
[24:23] Harmonized based on common principles,
[24:28] respecting human, human rights, respecting the best interests.
[24:32] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[24:33] Ilia Dubovtsev: And we should work over the framework that will help to speak in one language about the same problems in this area. So this is my recommendation to my colleagues from all of the contents.
[24:49] And I think that many of our peers share these whales because it's,
[24:57] it's a sign of common sense.
[24:59] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[25:00] Ilia Dubovtsev: And the common sense that the things that forming the foundation of our job.
[25:07] Debbie Reynolds: So I totally agree with that. And so I think one of the tensions that we have now internationally is that,
[25:18] you know, obviously different countries and jurisdictions have their own laws and they want to protect.
[25:24] And so that's why we get into a lot of the complications with international data transfers. Trying to translate what,
[25:31] what it means to protect data in the way that, you know, different jurisdictions want it done. But I wish that we had, just like you said, I guess harmonization is a good word for it.
[25:41] But I think there are multiple ways to do, to achieve a similar goal. And so I would like to see more fundamentals around.
[25:53] For example,
[25:55] we could say, well, we think that,
[25:58] you know,
[25:59] selling someone's data without their permission is bad.
[26:03] And it may be the different countries, if they agree with that, even if they are different in how they implement it, they at least have kind of those foundational beliefs so that it will make it a lot simpler.
[26:17] But I don't know. What do you think?
[26:19] Ilia Dubovtsev: I think that I don't judge about countries, I judge about people, whales. Because I never met a human who could disagree with my whales about privacy and my views of my colleagues.
[26:35] And as for countries,
[26:37] I think that every country has own national interests and has their own policy and security policy and has own vision about how the world should communicate with them. Yeah,
[26:52] it's own national vision.
[26:56] And I think that it shapes the data protection regulation in every country.
[27:01] It have an impact of the local security policy.
[27:08] But the things that unite the planet is a belief that we all should go to the world more secure and more free and respecting rights.
[27:24] I strongly believe that humanity will go to this state of things and as of different policies around the world,
[27:35] I do believe that our mission is to make nations closer,
[27:41] to translate problems in one language and work over the frameworks that makes our countries closer. So as for countries,
[27:52] I think that it's a political question,
[27:55] absolute political question, and I think that it should Be resolved by political persons and political actors. We should do what we do.
[28:07] Is my answer to your question.
[28:10] Debbie Reynolds: Right, right.
[28:12] Ilia Dubovtsev: It's my answer to a question and it's question to a question.
[28:16] Debbie Reynolds: Yes. Right. Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness.
[28:19] So tell me your, your perspective about when you're working with,
[28:25] with clients in different countries and they're, you know, doing these transfers.
[28:30] What have you noticed maybe that people, people that the clients maybe either misunderstand or they need more education about?
[28:40] Ilia Dubovtsev: I think that it's more about education.
[28:43] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[28:43] Ilia Dubovtsev: And it's because we should work over literacy, as I have said,
[28:48] because literacy,
[28:50] especially technical and technology literacy,
[28:54] is a crucial aspect of the knowledge many people don't have, unfortunately.
[29:01] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[29:02] Ilia Dubovtsev: Today. And I think that privacy professional and data professionals and technology professionals should work shoulder to shoulder to improve literacy of mathis about their rights, the data,
[29:16] the technology.
[29:19] So it's absolutely a question of education because privacy is an absolutely natural thing.
[29:25] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[29:25] Ilia Dubovtsev: It's a part of every human.
[29:28] We all want to reach an individual liberty. So it's commonly agreed by everyone.
[29:35] But only thing to overcome the problems is literacy.
[29:40] So it's absolutely a question about education.
[29:44] Debbie Reynolds: I like how you phrase it about individual liberty, because that's how I feel about it in the US When I first started really paying attention to privacy, this was like in the mid-1990s.
[29:58] And I was shocked at that point to realize that privacy wasn't a fundamental human right in the Constitution.
[30:08] Because we just think, oh, we have all these liberties, we have all these other freedoms. And just the understanding that privacy wasn't protected in the way that I thought was like an eye opener for me,
[30:21] especially in the Internet age and the AI age,
[30:25] that liberty that you talk about, I think is going to be very important.
[30:30] And from a technological perspective,
[30:33] I think that technology exists that could help with that. Especially as we're seeing people want to keep more of their data to themselves and share less or share,
[30:44] just share only what they need to share to be able to get like a product or service or do different things. But I want your thoughts.
[30:52] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah. I know that privacy is not clearly enumerated in the American Constitution.
[30:57] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[30:57] Ilia Dubovtsev: It's mostly based on the interpretation of the First Amendment to the Constitution, on the fourth Amendment, and to some parts on the third Amendment about warrant and many other rules of the Constitution.
[31:12] But it's not clearly enumerated. And it may be seen as a drawback of the Constitution as a legal document.
[31:21] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[31:22] Ilia Dubovtsev: But I think that American legal system is based on common law, and common law is Based on common sense.
[31:30] So absolutely.
[31:32] It's a legal system, it's based on common sense. And since it's based on common sense,
[31:38] common sense speaks that we should respect the right.
[31:45] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[31:45] Ilia Dubovtsev: An unalignable right of any people to have their own borders, personal borders, territorial border, territorial borders, property borders and information borders.
[31:58] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[31:59] Ilia Dubovtsev: And every people have rights to defend these borders.
[32:06] That's why common law respects privacy.
[32:10] So American law also should do it as their principles based on common law principles. And I share every initiatives of various,
[32:22] various powers and various institutions in the United States who enhances or promote the idea of privacy.
[32:31] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[32:31] Ilia Dubovtsev: And I could quote Ayn Rand.
[32:35] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[32:35] Ilia Dubovtsev: As a Russian born American writer,
[32:39] you maybe know about her. Yeah. Ayn Rand offended privacy,
[32:43] the unalienable right of every human and privacy, the thing that naturally deprived, naturally originated and human nature. I absolutely agree with Ayn Rand.
[32:56] I think that her views greatly shaped American privacists. I couldn't judge about cases and situations happened in America because I'm not American citizen and I'm not American resident. So as a strange watcher, as a strange human from other countries,
[33:15] I only can hope that America will lead to best definition of privacy. As Ayn Rand and as I have founder founding fathers of American Constitution, I hope they wanted to have.
[33:32] Debbie Reynolds: So Ilia, if it were the world according to you and we did everything you said, what will be your wish for privacy or data protection anywhere in the world? Whether that be human behavior,
[33:45] technology or regulation.
[33:47] Ilia Dubovtsev: Privacy is a set of various things. It is about both human behavior and regulation in culture.
[33:54] To be honest, I think that privacy is ultimately the anthropological phenomenon.
[34:00] So anthropological phenomenon is the thing that tells about culture. So culture stands first in that data privacy.
[34:09] The second level, the upper. The second level is human behavior based on culture and regulation only facilitate.
[34:18] Only facilitates the culture, the culture implementation, the cultural norms, implementation.
[34:25] So that's because regulation is a hand of state, hand of an enforcer who enables the norms to be implemented in the reality.
[34:38] But the culture is a foundation.
[34:41] Culture is the foundation. Because that's why I propose you to be focused on the literacy and.
[34:47] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[34:47] Ilia Dubovtsev: And work on literacy. Because literacy builds cultural norms, cultural veils for the people.
[34:54] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[34:54] Ilia Dubovtsev: Because when human understands why our privacy is so important, this human will adhere to the veils of privacy and to the principle of privacy and we'll think about privacy and privacy rights.
[35:07] I think that privacy is ultimately more about culture. It's an anthropological phenomenon.
[35:13] Debbie Reynolds: I love that you said that. I've never heard anyone say that about privacy being cultural and I think it's true. I think that's true. Right. Because every culture in every society has a history, and they've developed over time based on that history.
[35:30] And so that does explain a lot of the differences. And I think what you hit on is really vital because some people,
[35:38] when they're interacting with different jurisdictions, they try to project their own culture onto other people's.
[35:48] What other people do.
[35:49] And when you're working in privacy, you have to be understanding the cultural differences in different jurisdictions,
[35:57] and the genesis of that. And so that creates more literacy and that creates more understanding.
[36:05] But you can't really,
[36:07] in terms of anthropology,
[36:09] too,
[36:09] you do have to understand what happened before. Right.
[36:13] So that you know why things are the way they are.
[36:17] Ilia Dubovtsev: I think that privacy, as Ayn Rand said, that privacy is originated in human nature.
[36:25] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[36:26] Ilia Dubovtsev: And I think that before any knowledge, it's a natural feeling of any human. I should protect my borders. I should protect my personality.
[36:36] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[36:37] Ilia Dubovtsev: My individuality.
[36:38] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[36:38] Ilia Dubovtsev: And that's because privacy is about these borders. It's personal borders. I want to be left alone.
[36:44] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[36:45] Ilia Dubovtsev: As Judge Brandeis said once. Yeah.
[36:48] Ilia Dubovtsev: Right.
[36:49] Ilia Dubovtsev: To be left alone. And I think that anthropology is the way to describe.
[36:54] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[36:54] Ilia Dubovtsev: To describe the phenomenon. But this phenomenon was even. Even before any scientific. Scientific interpretation and scientific description of this phenomenon. It's absolutely originated in human nature.
[37:08] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[37:09] Ilia Dubovtsev: So it is. Because I. I believe that privacy is one of the most fundamental right.
[37:16] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[37:16] Ilia Dubovtsev: If. If even not the most.
[37:19] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[37:20] Ilia Dubovtsev: Maybe. Maybe it's more important even than property rights. Yeah. Because property rights based on privacy rights. It's a property, I think, of external world.
[37:31] Ilia Dubovtsev: Yeah.
[37:32] Ilia Dubovtsev: But privacy, the internal world, it's a really intimate thing.
[37:38] Debbie Reynolds: Right.
[37:39] Oh, wow.
[37:40] It gave us a lot to think about.
[37:42] That's amazing. Thank you so much. This is great. And I'm sure everyone will love the episode as much as I do. So, people, please do follow Ilia on LinkedIn. I love your writing.
[37:53] I love the things that you put out. It's very unique, and I like your point of views,
[37:57] your perspective. So I think that we're smarter when we are reaching across the globe and talking to each other and having more understanding of one another.
[38:09] Ilia Dubovtsev: Thank you so much. It was a great pleasure to be a guest at your podcast.
[38:14] Debbie Reynolds: Thank you. Excellent. Excellent. Well, I look forward to us being able to collaborate in the future. And thanks so much for being on the show.
[38:20] Ilia Dubovtsev: Thank you. I hope. I hope and I will be looking forward.
[38:25] Debbie Reynolds: Thank you. Talk to you soon. Thank you so much for doing this.
[38:28] Ilia Dubovtsev: Thank you.
[38:29] Ilia Dubovtsev: Thank you. Have a great day.
.png)