The Data Diva E301 - Naureen Hussain and Debbie Reynolds

Naureen Hussain, Founder, Luminate Advisers Limited (United Kingdom)

In this episode of The Data Diva Talks Privacy, Debbie Reynolds, “The Data Diva,” speaks with Naureen Hussain, Founder of Luminate Advisers Limited in the United Kingdom, about the evolving role of privacy leaders, digital transformation, AI governance, and the importance of moving from gatekeeper to coach. Naureen shares her career journey from employment law into privacy, data protection, and digital transformation, explaining how curiosity and a willingness to raise her hand created new opportunities throughout her career.

The conversation explores how privacy professionals can become more effective by helping business teams understand how to achieve responsible outcomes rather than simply explaining legal requirements. Naureen discusses the importance of building trust, developing relationships, and helping stakeholders evaluate practical options and trade-offs.

Debbie and Naureen examine the growing pressure on privacy teams as organizations accelerate digital initiatives and AI adoption. They discuss why privacy, data governance, security, architecture, legal, ethics, and business strategy can no longer operate in isolation and why privacy leaders must build strong networks across the organization.

Naureen introduces the idea of moving from parent-child workplace dynamics toward adult-to-adult conversations. She explains that privacy leaders should clearly present risks, benefits, and consequences while allowing accountable business leaders to own the final decision. The discussion also highlights the need for risk-based approaches, clear guardrails, and practical escalation processes.

The conversation concludes with a discussion of human agency, human rights, workforce transformation, and the role privacy professionals can play in responsible AI adoption. Naureen encourages privacy leaders to move beyond box-ticking, reconnect privacy to its human impact, and engage earlier with business, technology, and Human Resources leaders.

Transcript

[00:00] Debbie Reynolds: The personal views expressed by our podcast guests are their own and are not legal advice or official statements by their organizations.

[00:18] Hello,

[00:19] my name is Debbie Reynolds. They call me the Data Diva. This is the Data Diva Talks Privacy podcast where we discuss data privacy issues with industry leaders around the world with information the businesses need to know.

[00:31] Now,

[00:33] I have a very special guest all the way from the uk, Naureen Hussain.

[00:38] She is the founder of Luminate Advisors Limited. Welcome.

[00:43] Naureen Hussain: Thanks, Debbie. Thanks for having me.

[00:46] Debbie Reynolds: Well, I'm excited to have you here today.

[00:48] Talk about all things privacy and digital transformation and how the role of a DPO or a data privacy leader is evolving and changing. But I want to know more about your background, your trajectory,

[01:03] how you got into this, why you have a passion for data privacy.

[01:09] Naureen Hussain: Yeah, great. So I think,

[01:12] like many of your audience and many peers from our profession, I have a, what I call a squiggly career into data protection and privacy.

[01:23] So I started off as a lawyer, not in privacy. In fact, I was employment or labor lawyer.

[01:28] And whenever a data protection issue cropped up on one of my cases,

[01:34] it was like a hot potato and I'd chuck it to the nearest person who was going to catch it from our data protection team.

[01:41] So it wasn't until several years later when I had made the transition to working in house.

[01:47] I had been in a private practice law firm for my first phase of career.

[01:52] There's, of course, when you go in house or you don't have the luxury of a dedicated specialist team that you can hand things off to. So at that time I was working for a Chinese telco or telecoms company called Huawei, which I'm sure you're familiar with.

[02:08] And the GDPR was coming down the road and they were looking for people to kind of lean in and support. And I saw that really as an opportunity to,

[02:19] I suppose, expand my impact in the organisation.

[02:23] Having made that transition from in house to from private practice to in house,

[02:28] I had a naivety, I think, that I'd land in house and all of a sudden I would be engaging across the full breadth of the business and be involved in lots of cool projects.

[02:37] And as it was, I was in a glass room that the legal team was stuck in doing legal work, and I was thinking, oh,

[02:45] metaphoric. And literally, how can I break out of this glass room and have a bit more impact in the business than the GDPR global programme?

[02:53] I presented that opportunity. So, yeah, before I knew it, I was putting my hand up for getting involved in various different elements of that program and cut a Long story short, within six to seven months later I was offered a role, dedicated Privacy officer role, covering the UK and Ireland portfolio of businesses.

[03:12] So yeah, so I made the jump and then moved from legal to a compliance role in that privacy function.

[03:20] And then there was a moment in time given GDPR coming in where the recruitment market was just so dynamic. I was getting calls every day during this period and one of those calls was to take up a role as DPO at a big Telco in the UK called Virgin Media.

[03:41] It's now Virgin Media 02, a gigantic organization. So I went for that and I got it. So I moved over into that role.

[03:49] Yeah and I was very happy in the DPO role there, lots to do, very challenging, very interesting.

[03:55] But then an opportunity came up to,

[03:58] as I refer to it, go over to the dark side and move into a role working directly for the Chief Digital Officer who approached me and said look, love working with you, you're great, but can you stop throwing rocks at us from the sidelines and why don't you come and work for me and build the capability that's needed for my organization to really be sustainable and to scale.

[04:22] So yeah, I didn't quite know what the job was when I said yes,

[04:27] but I thought this is a really inspiring, cool person to work for.

[04:31] It's not an opportunity that comes around very often at all and let's just do it and see what happens. So.

[04:38] So yeah, I did that for a bit.

[04:41] Stop me by the way, because it's very long potted history of my career.

[04:44] Debbie Reynolds: Oh no, this is amazing.

[04:46] Naureen Hussain: So I did that for a bit.

[04:48] Lots of really amazing great experiences working alongside digital product leads,

[04:54] SCRUM understanding Scrum and Agile and Scrum Masters what they do and product ownership and but also the digital technology side, data scientists, data engineers,

[05:05] really cool inspir hiring people that I learned loads from and have the job of trying to sell data protection, data governance and responsible and ethical data and towards the end AI use.

[05:20] So yeah, that was a challenge but I really enjoyed it.

[05:22] And then I was also asked to lead a transformation program across fraud prevention and bad debt management, which is a big issue for telcos and that was working directly for the CEO on that,

[05:37] which was again an amazing opportunity. I didn't quite know what I was letting myself in for but I thought well they obviously see something in me so let's just do it and see what happens.

[05:48] It was immensely pressured and then we get to 2024 and I don't know if it's a seven year, itch but I started to feel an itch of maybe it's time to do something else.

[06:01] And that was when I decided to set up my own consulting practice. I'm a very creative person. I quite enjoy coming up with ideas and innovative ways of approaching problems and issues.

[06:14] And I thought this way of working would give me more flexibility to do that and to support lots of different organizations.

[06:22] But I have to say, one of the things I quickly realized when I started working in this way for myself is how annoying I am. What must have been to work for.

[06:30] Because I am constantly coming up with new ideas, but now I'm the person who has to execute them. So I just have to rein myself in and say, no, just focus on these for now and the other ideas can go in the backlog.

[06:43] So, yeah, so I've been working in that way for about 18 months now.

[06:47] Debbie Reynolds: Well, you have such an amazing trajectory. So your move from working in law firms to going in house,

[06:56] to working more in like the product space and the data space with embedded with other teams and then now your journey being a. Your own boss, which is amazing.

[07:07] I think one of the things that really stands out to me about your career is that you really sought out those opportunities and you were able to raise your hand and be able to move into these new spaces.

[07:20] Especially a lot of the roles that you were in were things that were probably created for you or things that didn't exist.

[07:29] So I think that is a good lesson for people who want to like, if they're in an organization, they want to get involved.

[07:37] Raising your hand, being able to say, this is what I'm super interested in. How can I get involved?

[07:42] Especially this is such a hard.

[07:45] Data privacy. Data protection is a difficult issue.

[07:49] So. And it has many different angles. So being able to raise your hand and being able to say, you know, I can learn on the job or I can, you know, what are the skills that I have that are transferable to this issue?

[08:05] Which is amazing.

[08:06] Naureen Hussain: Yeah. And I also think to kind of build on that.

[08:10] I feel very passionately about this. My teenage boys never hear the end of this life lesson I'm continuously teaching them,

[08:17] which is not just raise your hand and make it known that you're interested and want to get involved, but also be curious and ask the questions that are in your mind and probably lots of other people's minds.

[08:30] But particularly in certain corporate contexts and particularly for when you're in a subject matter expertise role, it can become difficult to put your hand up and say, I don't understand or can you explain this to me?

[08:47] Or not necessarily in the meeting and in the discussion, but in the one to ones afterwards.

[08:54] I always found that that approach led then to the conversations of, oh, well, you're interesting because you say the things and ask the questions that many people in the room probably are thinking but are not saying.

[09:06] So I think, yeah, being curious. And I go back to my early conversations with the Chief Digital Officer into that working for it was because I was just peppering him with questions saying, help me understand.

[09:19] And he then saw in me,

[09:21] oh, she's quite curious and open minded.

[09:24] So I'd encourage people in your audience to absolutely be really clear on what your skills are.

[09:30] That's another. I'm going into different passion areas. That's another. I feel very strongly and almost protective of our profession.

[09:38] It's such a hard job being a DPO or a DP leader in an organization.

[09:43] You're balancing so much. It's an art rather than a science.

[09:48] So much of it comes down to judgment, human relationships, navigating conflict, how to kind of align lots of differences.

[09:55] So challenging and often done so elegantly that people don't even notice that it's being done. And then you're not getting the value or the acknowledgement. So you do have to shout up for yourself and you do have to make it known that, you know, I have all these tools and skills in my toolkit that I could bring to another role.

[10:15] Debbie Reynolds: I want your thoughts about operationalizing privacy,

[10:19] because I think I've seen people think that their role as a DPO or data privacy leader is just saying these are the rules,

[10:32] you should do this or you shouldn't do that.

[10:35] It's more than just saying, oh, this is what the law says, or this is what I call and that people who do things that way. I feel like you're kind of like throwing a grenade in a way and then leaving the room.

[10:46] So I feel like if you're really effective in your job, you're not only telling them what the rules are, but helping them figure out,

[10:56] understanding the business, understanding where they are,

[10:59] and then trying to meet them where they are to try to help them understand how to actually achieve a goal. But what are your thoughts?

[11:07] Naureen Hussain: Yeah, 100% agree.

[11:11] One of my buzz phrases that I like to use is shifting from gatekeeper to coach.

[11:16] Like an effective data protection leader in an organization should be,

[11:21] considering their role is to coach those decision owners and those people who are accountable for the execution on how to get to those data protection outcomes.

[11:33] And I don't I know that people will disagree with me, so I'm going to be a little bit controversial. But often it's the very strict boundaries of the role of DPO under the gdpr where the organizations are subject to GDPR is kind of used as a reason why I can't step beyond the advisory role.

[11:56] And it's, you know, down to you. And I actually agree with you. I think that that's. It's not as black and white as that.

[12:03] You must make sure if you're in a GDPR DPO role, that you're not making decisions about processing data.

[12:09] But that's, it's. I look at it the complete opposite view. It's implicit in your role to provide advice and guidance to the organization on how they can comply to get into that operational stuff.

[12:19] Now, you can't own the process or the solution, but you can certainly play a very active leading role in the design of it.

[12:28] And I think that when you do that over time, you see kind of a relaxing of the shoulders of your stakeholders when you walk into an incident because they got you build that trust credit over time, don't you?

[12:41] So when you do say no,

[12:42] people know that, okay, this must be a hard line because Naureen's always trying to find the solution and is quite pragmatic and practical.

[12:51] If she's saying no,

[12:53] there must be something in this.

[12:55] Yeah. My view on it is,

[12:58] in fact, as given the context that a lot of businesses are finding themselves in at the moment, there's this pressure to be lean,

[13:05] pressure to cut costs. I think it's very challenging if you're in a DP function or DP leadership role to stay in that very narrow lane. I think there's going to be a lot of pressure to say, look, you've got to take on more.

[13:20] We can talk AI governance, for example. There are lots of DP leaders who are expected to lean much more into that not. And some of the clients I work with are finding that quite difficult for different reasons.

[13:34] But I think that pressure will continue because you can't keep hiring experts. And also that doesn't give you a good outcome, does it? If you've got five, six different experts looking at a problem through very specific lenses,

[13:46] it requires a holistic approach.

[13:49] Debbie Reynolds: I think that's true. And then part of something that you said about Naureen saying no and people understanding.

[13:59] To back up a bit, I want to talk a little bit about like relationship building.

[14:03] So I feel like people who are successful in these roles know how to build those. You have to build that relationship and that trust first before you start saying no.

[14:14] So, yes, it's very important.

[14:16] Right. But what are your thoughts?

[14:18] Naureen Hussain: I. It's difficult for me because I'm just so curious. I remember being back at school many years ago and our English teachers, as we kind of graduated high school, as you'd call it, secondary school here, gave us all a little gift.

[14:32] And it was the Mr. Men book series. And we each got a little either Mr. Something or a Ms. Something.

[14:39] And mine was little Ms. Curious.

[14:41] And because I've always been the person that raises the hand and asks questions, and I think that that comes naturally to me. And I think that as we've discussed earlier,

[14:51] and it's not easy, and I don't want to suggest that it is easy, it does require a bit of courage. But as you do this more and more, it's like a muscle you exercise, it gets easier and easier.

[15:02] But I think, kind of being the person that says,

[15:05] I really don't understand,

[15:07] can you help me?

[15:09] So find the people in the organization who are your key.

[15:14] If we think about it as a jigsaw puzzle, who's got the key pieces of your jigsaw puzzle? You only have some of them.

[15:20] Who are those people? The people who own the data strategy, the data architects, or the enterprise architects in the organization,

[15:28] People who own, these days, the AI strategy.

[15:31] Find those people and create that allyship or network of people who hold those other knowledge areas that where you need to understand and build your proficiency. And I think I've never had,

[15:46] in the time that I've done this, lots of different contexts in clients and in this role. Now,

[15:51] the moment you ask somebody, well, teach me about your world.

[15:54] It's always met with flattery.

[15:57] My experience,

[15:58] I've never had anybody say, oh, I don't have time for this. I've always had that. Oh, yes, I'd love to. You know, if you say to an architect,

[16:06] can you just help me understand the enterprise architecture and give them a whiteboard and a pen and, you know, they're just the best thing to do all day long. So relationships are,

[16:18] I would put at the top of the list of what would you call it, a skill, a competency, a capability. It should be front and center of your strategy,

[16:28] whichever role you're in, but definitely in a role like a data protection or privacy leadership role. And one thing I will share is I was once,

[16:36] a few years ago,

[16:38] I was supposed to be on a call, project call, and I missed it and I had to listen back to the recording and there was, and actually it was the director of architecture at that company who was, who's on the call with other people.

[16:51] And in that meeting and I was playing it back and listening to it, he said,

[16:56] well hang on a minute,

[16:58] this is a privacy question. If Naureen was here, she would be saying da, da, da, da, da.

[17:04] So let's now tackle that issue. And I connected with him afterwards and said, oh my God. It was just like such an emotional moment for me that you actually didn't, you don't just listen and take have.

[17:15] Regardless, the issue was triggered in your mind. You spoke up, you said if Nori was here and you know, that's great highlight.

[17:22] Debbie Reynolds: Yeah, that's absolutely great. Absolutely great.

[17:26] There are so many companies that are going rapidly into digital transformation,

[17:32] pushing really hard to distinguish themselves. A lot of people want to do AI as some people aren't ready to do AI in the way that they want to do. But how does that put pressure on someone in a DP or a dpo?

[17:47] Naureen Hussain: I think it's really tough. I think it was tough before.

[17:50] What would you say the last year it's real step change and being.

[17:56] I mean there is probably more often than not the case that the data protection framework hasn't reached target maturity and now you're expecting to make it fit for purpose to handle the complexity and nuance and speed of AI deployment.

[18:14] And I think also in the context of the AI strategy isn't even clear. It's like we want to do AI and teams that are accountable and who are also feeling that pressure to deliver are also trying to now refine that, turn that into a refined strategy and then a roadmap,

[18:32] but at the same time trying to get stuff out the door very quickly and then turning to data protection teams and other enablement functions saying come on, let's go, let's go, let's go.

[18:42] It's I really feel for the DPOs and the DP leads in that context because everything in your body is saying I need to do a proper risk assessment, I need to look at this rigorously, I need to put it through a DPIA potentially.

[18:58] But you can't.

[18:59] That approach is not going to work.

[19:03] And so what I feel it's almost like a pressure to accelerate a shift in the role and in the culture and mindset. I think of data protection teams to move towards a.

[19:19] We talk about a risk based approach, but to truly live that risk based approach,

[19:24] triage have really clear guardrails and what fits into a low, medium, high and then Ultimately you need to take that. That's not your decision to make, is it? That's your an input.

[19:36] But then you need to say, well one of requirements for us to work in this more agile and fading speed for control is we need the board or we need the relevant executive accountable owners to understand what the risk that we're accepting here.

[19:54] And I'm not sure,

[19:56] maybe your experience is different Debbie, but I don't think on the whole we are equipped as a profession to have that type of trade off conversation with leadership. We just take the pressure, we moan in our own teams and in our own heads, oh, this isn't fair actually we need to take that conversation to those people and say,

[20:15] well fine, we could do it this way,

[20:17] we can move faster, we can have some more. But you need to understand what you're getting into and you need to somebody, the right person needs to sign that off.

[20:26] Debbie Reynolds: So I'm glad you brought this up because this comes up a lot in conversations with people.

[20:33] I have heard people say like they get upset because they may have a strategy or a theory of the way that they think companies should do something and then the company decides to do something different and they're upset.

[20:46] To me it's like it's their decision.

[20:48] Like I can say here's the path, here's the option, here are the traits, here are the benefits, here are the challenges. But someone in the company has to really own it and be able to say, well this is what we want to do.

[21:01] And, and then my job is to support them in how they do whatever that thing is that they decide. So I'm not the decision maker. I'm a person really painting the picture and letting them see what the trade offs are.

[21:15] So I totally agree with that. What do you think?

[21:18] Naureen Hussain: I'm the same and I think that. So a couple of thoughts as you were talking there. One is a bit abstract.

[21:26] There's a model psychological model called transactional analysis. When you have parent child,

[21:35] adult dynamics in relationships and I see somebody, a coach shared this concept with me a few years ago and now it's one of those things, once you understand it, you see it everywhere.

[21:46] And I think that often when you're in an advisory function such as data protection in an organization, it's very easy to fall into the parent child dynamic where in certain situations you take the parent role and they don't know what they do.

[22:00] They wouldn't be able to make that decision. And then sometimes it flips and you're the child being kind of told what to do, what not to do by stakeholder. And the magic happens when you are aware of that dynamic and you actually can shift into an adult to adult relationship.

[22:16] And how does that manifest? Or we talked earlier about going to the right person and saying this is a risk averse position, this is a moderate risk position, this is a high risk position.

[22:28] And let's have a conversation of the trade off.

[22:31] So that occurred to me as he was talking. And anybody who's not heard of that transactional analysis kind of concept, I'd encourage them. It's fascinating and it plays out in your personal relationships as well as at work.

[22:43] But the other thing is much more practical and what I'm hearing on the ground across different clients is who are DPOs and DP leaders who are facing this challenge and the phrase that.

[22:54] And it was interesting because two different organizations both use the same phrase,

[22:57] whereas we're trying to move towards an empowerment model rather than an expert led model within the organizations.

[23:08] And the phrase or the comment was,

[23:11] but we don't trust them to do,

[23:14] to make the right decision.

[23:15] And oh, okay, that, wow, that's a lot. What do you mean you don't trust them to make the right decision?

[23:21] So, but yeah, so I think it comes back to relationships as well, doesn't it, that you've got to really get under the psychology of why don't you trust them? And actually an acknowledgement of you only have part of the jigsaw piece.

[23:34] It is this person who's making the decision, who might be the product owner, the commercial lead, the whoever it is in the organization.

[23:41] They've got your pieces, but they've got this huge jigsaw puzzle that is full of all the things they need to be thinking about to make that decision.

[23:50] Yeah, maybe there's a bit, I'm thinking of it, it's making me kind of shoot off in other directions. But maybe there's also an element of do we personalize our advice and our position?

[24:01] Do we conflate our role and reputation and status within an organization with our expert advice? Which is very easy to do because if your identity and your platform of confidence comes from being an expert and somebody saying, well, we're not going to do what you're recommending,

[24:22] I can see how that can hurt,

[24:25] actually.

[24:27] Debbie Reynolds: But I think the key is not to take it personally.

[24:31] Right. Because I think for me, and I'm sure you know this better than anyone, is that just like you said, everyone in the organization has their own little jigsaw puzzle that they're working on.

[24:44] And so there are other,

[24:46] there are competing things that are happening within the organization that they have to balance and they have to figure out what makes the most sense for them and then how risk averse are they as an organization.

[24:58] Right. Because at the end of the day they have to own what they choose. So being able to understand what those,

[25:05] for me, being able to communicate what those benefits are, what those risks are is really key because they have to choose a path and then whatever happens on that path, it can't be like, oh, Naureen didn't tell me that if we chose this option that this thing would happen.

[25:21] So being able to make clear what those things are is very important.

[25:26] Naureen Hussain: And I think I would also say,

[25:28] and it's back to building credibility as well with your stakeholder group is when you're communicating those risks and also benefits. But mostly on the risk side of what we do.

[25:38] I always start with that business or that project's objectives, what are their goals, what are they trying to achieve?

[25:46] And then are there and not always the case doesn't always work. But are there any easy direct links between good privacy outcomes and their goals? Because that's the strongest. You know, they then sit up and listen.

[25:59] Take marketing. Anything that relies on optimizing your addressable base in terms of being able to send marketing communications. Well,

[26:07] if you create a really good transparent privacy experience that's going to help your users feel more confident and giving their consent or not objecting.

[26:18] I think framing the benefits in using language and in the context that makes sense to them and they can relate to, I think is a really useful starting point.

[26:28] Debbie Reynolds: I think that's true. I think that's true. Oh my gosh. Well, if it were the world according to you, Marine,

[26:35] and we did everything you said, what would be your wish for privacy or data protection anywhere in the world, whether that be regulation, human behavior or technology?

[26:45] Naureen Hussain: Wow, that's a big question.

[26:49] Well, I am a, I'm ever the optimist and despite some really challenging conditions that we're living through at the moment for geopolitically and otherwise,

[26:58] I actually,

[27:00] I'm feeling quite positive. I think that pace and acceleration and possibility that AI brings and the experience that we've gone through with social media and what happens when you, when you don't proactively regulate social media?

[27:15] I think there's an, an awakening of ethics as not being something that is just some abstract concept. And yeah, of course we do the right thing.

[27:26] I think it's going to be front and center and you can see it already in maybe I'm in an echo chamber. So I'm seeing it a lot. But in conversations I'm having with clients that talking about the role of the human in the skills and the magic that happens when you have a human do something compared to a machine like those conversations are happening in practical settings in organizations and linking back to the core fundamental principles of

[27:57] data protection, which is fundamental rights protection of our human agency and control over our lives in every dimension perspective.

[28:07] I think our profession unfortunately became a box ticking exercise. It became death by DPIA as a process.

[28:18] And I am definitely, I mean I gave a training to a new client a a few weeks ago. It was my first session with them and I thought right, how do I get.

[28:27] I want to start this relationship with them thinking differently with them thinking oh, this is not what we thought data protection was about and it was all about human rights.

[28:36] We just had a conversation about human rights and the origin story of data protection and gdpr,

[28:42] especially in the European context.

[28:45] And then we related it to things that are happening today in the world.

[28:49] And it was a very engaging conversation.

[28:52] And I honestly think that,

[28:54] I mean I studied law at university and one of my modules was human rights law. And when I did it I did not think at all that I would however many years later be talking about this stuff now.

[29:05] But I do think that I wouldn't say everybody is sold on it. The commercial people are there to make money. But I think that there's much more of an active conversation around ethics and the role of humans,

[29:19] the societal impact of some of the decisions that we might be making today.

[29:24] And one other thing that's occurred to me as we've been talking is how often I have said my first career was in legal practice and employment law. So I have a quite an extensive network of HR directors and people working in HR and I'm quite surprised that the conversation isn't as because for me,

[29:45] AI strategy for an organization and the execution of that strategy HR should be front and center of designing the organization, equipping the people in the organization to really, I mean it's going to be profound change for everybody and there's not that much conversation going on.

[30:00] So again it may be go and have a conversation with your people, lead people director and say what are we doing? From a how this, when the rubber hits the road, the impact it's going to have on our people and can I get involved now?

[30:12] You might not think, well there's a, well, do I need to get involved? I'm the data protection lead.

[30:17] Get involved, have conversations at that level because it gives you that helicopter view to then say, ah, okay. You care about that and you care about that. Well, actually, data protection and what we're trying to achieve supports you.

[30:31] Or you can support us,

[30:33] right? Finding and creating that system.

[30:36] Yeah.

[30:37] Debbie Reynolds: Oh, wow. That's amazing. That's amazing. Well, thank you so much for being on the show.

[30:42] This is very illuminating, and I think people who are at different stages of their career,

[30:49] if they take even a morsel of what you said, it will definitely help them develop themselves and be able to be a better advisor to their companies.

[31:01] Naureen Hussain: Great. Thanks, Debbie. I really enjoyed the conversation, and as you can tell, I talk a lot. So thank you for bearing with me.

[31:09] Debbie Reynolds: Oh, my gosh. Oh, my God. You have so many things that people need to know and understand,

[31:15] so your expertise comes through.

[31:18] I'm a curious person as well, so I totally enjoy the conversation.

[31:23] Naureen Hussain: Now, the lovely. Thank you so much.

[31:25] Debbie Reynolds: All right, talk to you soon. Thank you.

[31:27] Naureen Hussain: Take care. Bye.

[31:28] Debbie Reynolds: Bye. Bye.